[xx1943]

In standard bidding

1♦ 1♠
3♦  ??

it is often a great problem for me to bid now:

1) are we forced to game?
2) are we forced to game except responder repeats his ♠s
3) shows 3NT by responder ♥ and ♣ stopped
4) shows 3♥ by responder suit or stopper or asks for stopper?
5) 4♦ is a gameforce, true, but is it a slam try


So what is your bid with:

1) ♠AQxx♥xx♦Kxx♣Kxxxx
2) ♠AQxx♥Kxx♦Kxxx♣xx
3) ♠AQxx♥xxx♦Kxxx♣xx
4) ♠AQxx♥xxx♦Kxx♣xxx

Compare with openers possible holdings
5) ♠Kx♥Axx♦AQJ10xx♣Ax
6) ♠Kx♥AKJ♦AQJ10xx♣xx
7) ♠Kx♥xx♦AQJ10xx♣AKJ

Do you have a solution how to bid all this combinations to the rite contract.
Imho this exampole is one aof great flaws of standard and a great argument for strong club systems.

Looking forward your opinions

Al

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

answering your questions:
1) No
2) partnership agreement, I have to check
what are mine, I think 3S can be passed
and 3H would be art.
3) yes, if both suits are stopped by power of
the mind only, nobody knows
4) it asks for further description, ... 3 card
spade support, stopper in clubs / hearts
5) of course it is also a slam try in diamond,
if you have no interest, bid 5D
It may not be a strong slam try, but it is a
slam try

To answer, what to bid:
1) 4D, we have a card fit lost of controls and raound 30HCP,
what more do you need to make a slam try
2) 4D, we have a card fit lost of controls and raound 30HCP,
what more do you need to make a slam try
3) 4D, four trumps
4) 3NT

No I dont have a solution to bid all combb. to the right contract,
which is not really possible, due to the fact that you only have
2 bids below 3NT.
If you need more space, play art. reverses (?!) (Roland is a big fan of it)
or invert the meaning of openers 2D and 3D rebid.
I like this idea from Pavlicek, but was not able to convince partner to
try it out.

With kind regards
Marlowe



With kind regards
Marlowe

[Codo]

xx1943, on May 30 2006, 02:39 PM, said:

In standard bidding

1♦ 1♠
3♦  ??

it is often a great problem for me to bid now:

1) are we forced to game?
2) are we forced to game except responder repeats his ♠s
3) shows 3NT by responder ♥ and ♣ stopped
4) shows 3♥ by responder suit or stopper or asks for stopper?
5) 4♦ is a gameforce, true, but is it a slam try


So what is your bid with:

1) ♠AQxx♥xx♦Kxx♣Kxxxx
2) ♠AQxx♥Kxx♦Kxxx♣xx
3) ♠AQxx♥xxx♦Kxxx♣xx
4) ♠AQxx♥xxx♦Kxx♣xxx

Compare with openers possible holdings
5) ♠Kx♥Axx♦AQJ10xx♣Ax
6) ♠Kx♥AKJ♦AQJ10xx♣xx
7) ♠Kx♥xx♦AQJ10xx♣AKJ

Do you have a solution how to bid all this combinations to the rite contract.
Imho this exampole is one aof great flaws of standard and a great argument for strong club systems.

Looking forward your opinions

Al

1. No game forcing, it is about 16-18 HCPs with 6 Diamonds and no second suit.
2. no, but for me 3 ♠ would be forcing
3. no, not enough space
4. I don´t think that one way is superior to the other, both pards have to be on the same wave length.
5. Sure it is, the opener is limited, so 5 Diamond is to play.

For the hands:

1. I would surely bid 1 ♦ 2 ♣ 3 ♦ 3♠ and have no further problem to reach the right contract.
2. I would make a slam try with 4 Diamond, RCKB the way I use to play it with most partners.
3. 3 ♥ as an asking bid. If I play control showing bids, I bid 3 NT, hoping pd will stop the suits.
4. as Nr. 3.

For openers hands: I think, I would prefer a 2 NT rebid to 3 Diamonds with all three hands. Yes, I have a nice 6 card suit, but the hand looks like NT.
Yes I would fail after a the right lead in 3 NT with the hands 3 and 4 , opposite hand 6 and 7, but what does this proove?

I will win opposite Kx, QJT, AQJTxxx,Ax and millions of similar hands.

I do not believe in the disadvantage compared to a strong club systems.
If the opps do not bid with 9 Clubs ( or Hearts) with all honours in their suit, you have nice opps and an advantage compared to the natural bidders. But opps tend not to be nice after a strong club opening and then you have a disadvantage quite often.

[FrancesHinden]

xx1943, on May 30 2006, 06:39 AM, said:

In standard bidding

1♦ 1♠
3♦  ??

it is often a great problem for me to bid now:

1) are we forced to game?
2) are we forced to game except responder repeats his ♠s
3) shows 3NT by responder ♥ and ♣ stopped
4) shows 3♥ by responder suit or stopper or asks for stopper?
5) 4♦ is a gameforce, true, but is it a slam try

1) No. 3D is not forcing, responder can pass. With a game-forcing hand with long diamonds opener must either rebid 3NT (which traditionally shows long diamonds) or with a shortage outside partner's suit, invent a reverse.

2) The normal way to play is that although responder can pass 3D, any rebid by responder forces the partnership to game. This isn't universal, however (for example, some more old-fashioned Acol players would feel they can pass 3S by responder).

3) No, you may have no alternative call to 3NT.

4) 3H is ostensibly natural. As opener won't have 4H (or he would have rebid 2H, not 3D) you can bid it without 4 hearts, but it would generally have length and/or strength in hearts.

5) Yes.

[Stephen Tu]

1/2: In standard, not forced to game, because 3d can be passed. But if responder bids again, game is forced. You gain more & more often utilizing the bids to find the best game contract than by trying to improve the partial from 3d to 3s
3: In standard methods you have to guess about either club or H stopper, depending on how you play the answer to 4.
4: I would think it shows something in hearts undiscussed.
5: mild try I guess.

Quote

Do you have a solution how to bid all this combinations to the rite contract.

K-S updated style rebids:
1D-1M-?
3D = some rock crusher, would have opened 2C if the diamonds were a major suit. GF
3c = minimum, NF, 5/5 or better in the minors
2c/2h = forcing, often fragment with 6+ diamonds. Opener rebids 3d next with such a hand.

By bidding the side suit strength before 3d, stoppers or lack thereof can be diagnosed.

[helene_t]

I think Frances' answers are what you should assume unless you have made some specific agreements with p. But I wonder if everybody would agree that opener can't have four hearts. Some would say that a reverse promises more strength than 3♦, I think.

Also, it is nice if you can assure that 3♦ denies 3-card spade support (alternative: promises three spades).

As for your example hands: I would try 3NT at matchpoints. At IMPs, I would probably bid 4♦, except for the last one with which I would try 3NT.

[Jboling]

I agree with the others that openers 3♦ rebid is nonforcing, so the given openers are clearly in the upper range of the bid. This brings Gazzilli to my mind, I have read somewhere that you can play Gazzilli after minor openings also, but I have never seen how it would work. Gazzilli is an artificial forcing 2♣ rebid after a major opening and 1♠ or 1NT response. After that responders 2♦ rebid is artifical 8+. As a result, all other bids by opener and responder are limited by the inability to bid the forcing bid. But using openers rebid 2♣ and responders rebid 2♦ as artificial forcing seems a bit awkward after a minor opening, especially in the auction starting 1♣-1♦. So I have thought about that one could use the lowest new suit rebid as forcing for both opener and responder. For responder it would usually mean a bid in the fourth suit. For example in the current case

1♦-1♠-2♣-2♥

2♣ = natural or a 17+ hand, forcing
2♥ = 8+, artificial GF against the strong hand.

After this openers 2♠ and 2NT rebids would be limited, higher bids would be GF. The given openers would bid 3♦.

But this is just an idea in progress, maybe someone can fill me in on how to really play Gazzilli after a minor opening?

[lowerline]

xx1943, on May 30 2006, 12:39 AM, said:

In standard bidding

1♦ 1♠
3♦  ??

it is often a great problem for me to bid now:

1) are we forced to game?
2) are we forced to game except responder repeats his ♠s
3) shows 3NT by responder ♥ and ♣ stopped
4) shows 3♥ by responder suit or stopper or asks for stopper?
5) 4♦ is a gameforce, true, but is it a slam try


So what is your bid with:

1) ♠AQxx♥xx♦Kxx♣Kxxxx
2) ♠AQxx♥Kxx♦Kxxx♣xx
3) ♠AQxx♥xxx♦Kxxx♣xx
4) ♠AQxx♥xxx♦Kxx♣xxx

Compare with openers possible holdings
5) ♠Kx♥Axx♦AQJ10xx♣Ax
6) ♠Kx♥AKJ♦AQJ10xx♣xx
7) ♠Kx♥xx♦AQJ10xx♣AKJ

Do you have a solution how to bid all this combinations to the rite contract.
Imho this exampole is one aof great flaws of standard and a great argument for strong club systems.

Looking forward your opinions

Al

1. no (you can pass)
2. no (any bid makes the bidding GF)
3. would be nice
4. 3♥ shows stopper
5. yes, it is a slamtry (otherwise you can bid 3NT or 5♦)

Bids:
1&2: 5♦ in imps, 3NT in mps
3&4: 3NT, but pass is an alternative in mps

5&6&7: all these hands are too strong for a non-forcing 3♦ rebid... (take away a side suit king or ace and they are what I would expect...)

Possible solution:
If 3♦ is NF, let's say 13-16hcp with a good suit, you can play the 2♣ rebid as artificial, showing the stronger diamond onesuiters, among other hand types.
After the 3♦ rebid, you can switch the meanings of the 3♥ and 3♠ bids: 3♥ shows a 5+ spade suit, looking for a spade fit, and 3♠ asks a heart stopper.

[xx1943]

P_Marlowe, on May 30 2006, 08:49 AM, said:

If you need more space, play art. reverses (?!) (Roland is a big fan of it)
or invert the meaning of openers 2D and 3D rebid.
I like this idea from Pavlicek, but was not able to convince partner to try it out.

Hi Marlowe

ty for this good ideas

Sincerly

Al

[Chamaco]

You might find something useful in this thread:

http://forums.bridge...showtopic=10057

Actually, it refers to Precision, limited 1D opener, but some suggestions might prove useful even in "standard-ish" methods. :-)

[glen]

One convention growing in popularity is 1m-jump to two level response to show 5+♠s and 4+♥s. For example, after 1♦, 2♥ shows 5+♠s, 4+♥s and not close to an invite, and 2♠ shows 5+♠s, 4+♥s and an invite or close to it. The convention works fine when it comes up, and has some nice secondary effects as well.

For example 1♦-1♠--2♥ does not need to be played as promising 4♥s, just reverse values and no other good bid. This allows opener to comfortably rebid 3♦ over 1♠ with a hand with too much for a mere 2♦ bid, but not enough to reverse. It also allows 2♥ to be rebid when looking for a 5-3 ♠ fit when holding extras.

[jdonn]

This topic is certainly not easy. Here is a bidding poll that has been run on this issue before

http://www.gg.caltec...s/bw81.ans.html

It refers to an old Bridge World hand, which you can get the results to on bottom of the poll.

[lowerline]

officeglen, on May 30 2006, 07:41 AM, said:

One convention growing in popularity is 1m-jump to two level response to show 5+♠s and 4+♥s.  For example, after 1♦, 2♥ shows 5+♠s, 4+♥s and not close to an invite, and 2♠ shows 5+♠s, 4+♥s and an invite or close to it.  The convention works fine when it comes up, and has some nice secondary effects as well.

For example 1♦-1♠--2♥ does not need to be played as promising 4♥s, just reverse values and no other good bid.  This allows opener to comfortably rebid 3♦ over 1♠ with a hand with too much for a mere 2♦ bid, but not enough to reverse.  It also allows 2♥ to be rebid when looking for a 5-3 ♠ fit when holding extras.

If you open 1♦ on a 1-4-3-5 in a Precision context (because your 2♣ opening shows a 6crd suit), you risk losing the ♥-fit when responder has 5♠4♥ (1♦-1♠-2♣-...) This convention is certainly usefull in that situation.
However... if you are playing a natural 1♦ opening, you don't need it and you shouldn't use it because there are definitely better things you can do with the 2♥/♠ responses.

[jdonn]

lowerline, on May 30 2006, 12:21 PM, said:

However... if you are playing a natural 1♦ opening, you don't need it and you shouldn't use it because there are definitely better things you can do with the 2♥/♠ responses.

Uh, doesn't Fred strongly advocate that treatment? I know a number of other strong players who do as well. I'm not that experienced with it, but the people I know who play it always swear by their results.

[mike777]

I use reverse flannery, flop, cosmic convention or whatever you want to call it all the time. I love it!


1minor=2h=4+h, 5+s and less than invite but not nothing....think around (6-10) or so....if you open lightish.

1minor=2s=invite in minor, unbalanced often (CrissCross).
Using XYZ or 2 way checkback handles the invite major suited hands just fine.

[Kalvan14]

• 1m-1M-3m is not GF. 16-18 HCP and good 6-card suit
  
• 1m-1M-3m-3M should be forcing. Opener has already shown a good 6-card suit. Why bid 3M with a weak hand?
  
• 1m-1M-3m-3OM shows a stopper in OM, and denies a stopper in om (in principle it might be a cue-bid, with fit in m; but opener behaves as if it is a 3N try)
  
• 1C-1M-3C gives a chance to show exactly the stopper that advancer has in his hand (3D= stops diamonds, 3OM= stops OM)
  
• 1D-1M-3D-3N guarantees a stopper in clubs; stopper in OM is uncertain.
  
• 1m-1M-3m-4m is forcing

[jdeegan]

In response to your questions, first 'standard' or SAYC or 2/1 auctions are the same given a 1♦-Pass-1♠-Pass beginning. In 2/1 AFTER A 2/1 RESPONSE, the 3♦ rebid has a special meaning.

1) Are we forced to game? Certainly not. Responder may pass or raise 3♦ to 4♦ as a game try.

2) Are we forced to game except when responder repeats his spades? Wrong again! Repeating spades is a game force. Only pass or 4♦ are not forcing. After 3♥, you might stop at 4♦.

3) 3NT by responder shows ♥ and ♣ stopped. NO, at least not at matchpoints where it guarantees a club stop only.

4) A 3♥ rebid by reponder SHOWS a heart stop.

5) WRONG. 4♦ is a GAME try.

1) ♠AQXX ♥xx♦Kxx♣Kxxx
Bid 3NT

2) ♠AQxx♥Kxx♦Kxxx♣xx
Bid 3♥, this denies a ♣ stopper

3) ♠AQxx ♥xxx♦Kxxx♣xx
Bid 5♦ - you have no stoppers, but plenty of extras

4) ♠AQxx♥xxx♦Kxx♣xxx
Bid 4♦ - you have three useful cards

5) ♠Kx♥Axx♦AQJ10xx♣Ax
Rebid 2NT - shows a balanced 18-19 HCP

6) ♠Kx♥AKJ♦AQJ10xx♣xx
Rebid 3♦. Pass 3NT response. Bid 5♦ (max 3♦bid) over a 3♥ response

7) ♠Kx ♥xx♦AQJ10xx♣AKJ
Rebid 3♦. Over 3♥, bid 3NT. Otherwise, cue bid clubs on the way to 5♦ or 4NT

The forcing 1♣ opener greatly reduces the range of the 3♦ rebid from 15+ to 18- high card plus distribution points to 15 to 16-, and its frequency is far less.

[glen]

lowerline, on May 30 2006, 05:21 PM, said:

However... if you are playing a natural 1♦ opening, you don't need it {it being reverse flannery by responder} and you shouldn't use it because there are definitely better things you can do with the 2♥/♠ responses.

This viewpoint is losing popularity.

[lowerline]

officeglen, on May 30 2006, 08:16 PM, said:

lowerline, on May 30 2006, 05:21 PM, said:

However... if you are playing a natural 1♦ opening, you don't need it {it being reverse flannery by responder} and you shouldn't use it because there are definitely better things you can do with the 2♥/♠ responses.

This viewpoint is losing popularity.

Why is this? What do you do with your WJS or SJS type of hands?

[glen]

Why - since players are experiencing better net results with these bids than other alternatives.

What to do with WJS - same thing as players using SJS do
What to do with SJS - same thing as players using WJS do

In this thread I'm not trying to convince players to move to these methods; I'm just saying they are growing in popularity, which includes my wife and I as two of the converts. Partnerships should consider taking these bids out for a test drive.