[foo]

I'm certainly not arguing with the definitions of what a minimum hand is or what the books say about showing support.

That ♠T8543♥652♦73♣AK6 is clearly a minimum H raise in SA is not in question.

The issue is whether it is weak enough to set up a Preference Auction despite its 3card support or whether it is good enough for a direct raise.

jdonn has come up with some decent examples for his point that are not so unusual as to be unrealistic.

Call me convinced. 1H-2H is the better auction. I'm still concerned that there is a non-ignorable chance that We will get too high, but C'est La Vie.

[han]

For me this is a clear heart raise, I wouldn't even consider bidding 1♠. As for foo's question:

If it goes 1H-2H;Game Try, how do you feel?
Sick to your stomach.

Only if partner makes a short suit game try in clubs. I have nothing to be ashamed of.

[Double !]

prefer immediate raise to 2H
what is wrong with first supporting with support, and then look for other fish to fry if necessary?

fwiw: I am not crazy about constructive raises even in 2/1 or anything with 1M-1NT as being forcing. There is a chance of opps competing with a suit at the 2 level over 1NT and opener is now poorly placed without knowledge of trump support.
I must be getting old and obsolete

DHL

[foo]

FTR, there are some minimum responding hands with 3 card support that I still think are not worth a direct raise of 1H:

4333's with only two honors unless those two honors are both A's.

Control poor 6-7 counts, especially in flat hands.

etc

basically, a minimum raise should promise 2 cover cards and no more than 9 losers the vast majority of the time.

[Wackojack]

Hmm very interesting. Just to confess that I was Wayne's partner on this deal. Another confession. I come from an Acol background where it is automatic to bid a spade suit if you have it, when you don't have 4- card support for partner. Here we were playing 2/1 and my instinct was not to bid 2H unless I held Jxx or better when I hold 5 spades. I am now just about convinced that I should have supported with 2H immediately. btw We were not playing Flannery and had not agreed constructive raises. I am not sure I like them anyway. As Erick said 1h 1s 2m 2h is only preference.... so it can be inferred that this shows a doubleton heart. And yes I admit that my bid of 3nt was a bit weird.

[plaur]

None has mentioned it, but isnt the south hand very close to upgrading to a 20-21 2NT opener ?