[andych]

Comparing the merits of weak NT/strong NT may probably be too difficult under standard systems e.g. SAYC.

Playing Precision, which is the better choice, weak NT/strong NT? Or still a 50-50 proposition?

[vang]

many experts prefer 14-16, main advantage being that 16HCP balanced is excluded from strong 1C and this leads to better notrump ranges (1C-1D-1NT is 17-19 instead of 16-19).

[MickyB]

IMO there are three sensible ranges -

14-16. This is clearly right in 3rd+4th seat.
12/13-15, with a natural 1♦ opening.
9-12, 1st (and possibly 2nd) NV only.

[P_Marlowe]

The following interview by Eric Rodwell, was already mentioned on the
forum again and again, but since he also discusses the NT ranges playing
precision, here we go again:
http://www.bridgemat...com/rodwell.htm

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Free]

I prefer 12-15 with a natural and unbalanced 1♦ opening. I don't say it's superior, it's a matter of preference.

[awm]

I like 14-16. However, the reasons probably aren't very mainstream. Basically:

(1) I like to play a non-forcing 1NT response to 1M and pass with balanced hands. Because of this it's good to be able to open 1NT with the maximum balanced hands so that a flat 1M opening is basically 11-13.

(2) I think natural 1♦ openings are overrated and am not a huge fan of precision 2♦. Instead, I play a style where 1♦ is either balanced or three-suited (could be short diamonds!) and open intermediate twos in both minor suits. So there's no need to try to compress my balanced non-1♣ openings into a single range.

[pclayton]

14-16 is sensible, and usually works well with standard Precision rebids.

12-14 works fine too, with 1♦ - 1x - 1N being 15-17.

Even a mini 10-12 / 10-13 works fine.

I don't like 13-15, since I don't like to open balanced 11's with 1♦ and to have 1♦ - 1x - 1N as exactly 12 has never made sense to me. 13-15 was developed when folks regularly passes 12 counts; not so true anymore.

[rbforster]

I play 10-12 NV and 12+ to 15 when Vul or 4th seat. I like the preemption of weak NT when NV, although I could be convinced to play 10-13 so that 1C is a little sounder when balanced (16+ unbal or 17+ bal instead of any 16+). At Vul, I open any balanced hand I think the field would open (good 12's have a 5 card suit or nice spots, etc). This allows us to pass the bad balanced hands when vulnerable, which seems like a good idea .

[luke warm]

i guess it depends on the rest of your system, but i don't agree with adam that a 1♦ bid that actually shows diamonds is overrated... one of the weakest (imo) things about 'standard' precision is the nebulous diamond... that's one reason i prefer 12-15 with 1♦ showing (always) an unbalanced hand with 4+ diamonds

[erki_]

If 1NT is 12-15 and 1D is natural unbalanced, then what is 1D-1M-1NT/2C/2D?

[mikestar]

erki_, on May 11 2006, 02:55 PM, said:

If 1NT is 12-15 and 1D is natural unbalanced, then what is 1D-1M-1NT/2C/2D?

Luke's structure may differ, but this is what I play where 1NT is 12-15 and 1♦ is guaranteed unbalanced:

1♦-1M-2♣ is natural, showing 4+ clubs and 5+ diamonds, diamonds as long as or longer than clubs.

1♦-1M-2♦ is 6+ diamonds, one-suited (might choose this sequence with ♣xxxx on the side).

1♦-1♥-1NT is 4+ diamonds, 5+ clubs, clubs longer than diamonds.

1♦-1♠-1NT is as after 1♦-1♥ but there are two other possibities:
1) Exactly five diamonds and four hearts and too weak to reverse and not able to raise spades.
2) 1=4=4=4 shape.

[DrTodd13]

Another vote for 12-15 with 1♦ being 4+.

[luke warm]

erki_, on May 11 2006, 09:55 AM, said:

If 1NT is 12-15 and 1D is natural unbalanced, then what is 1D-1M-1NT/2C/2D?

ok, but hardly anyone else plays this... over 1d, 1h is a herbert relay and 1s/2c/2d are all weak and to play, 1nt is game force relay

after 1d : 1h : 1nt shows a 3 suited hand with a short major (2c asks where)... like i said, it depends on the rest of the system

[MickyB]

pclayton, on May 10 2006, 07:05 PM, said:

12-14 works fine too, with 1♦ - 1x - 1N being 15-17.

I don't like this at all, but then I've never seen much benefit in moving balanced 16/17 counts from the strong club - the worst hand a strong club opener can have for partner is a misfitting minimum, so what help is it removing those balanced hands? In fact, I like opening them a strong club - it is the only time that I feel that 1♣ has shown my hand with one bid, I can now sit back and await events.

Putting 15-17 balanced into 1♦ gives you the traditional problem of a weak NT - having to get across your extra strength in competition. I have some symapthy for an 11-13 NT (although I still consider 14-16 to be superior) but 12-14? Just stretch it slightly and you have a natural 1♦ opening, surely that is worth it?

[MickyB]

erki_, on May 11 2006, 02:55 PM, said:

If 1NT is 12-15 and 1D is natural unbalanced, then what is 1D-1M-1NT/2C/2D?

After 1♦:1♥, the 1NT and 2♣ rebids can both be used to show minor two-suiters. In Siege (1♦ = 11+, 4+♦ unbal, may have longer ♣) I encourage responder to keep the auction open by having a 2♣ rebid promise longer ♦. After 1♦:1♠, I use 1NT to show both minors and 2♣ to show both red suits. Giving opener a 3rd chance to bid isn't anything like as important when he is limited, so I don't know if this is optimal in this scenario.

[lowerline]

andych, on May 10 2006, 08:03 AM, said:

Comparing the merits of weak NT/strong NT may probably be too difficult under standard systems e.g. SAYC.

Playing Precision, which is the better choice, weak NT/strong NT?  Or still a 50-50 proposition?     

14-16 (open 1♦ with a balanced 11-13)

If you don't mind to adapt your range to seat and vulnerability:
10-12 in 1st and 2nd NV (open 1♦ with 13-15, 1♣ with 16+)
14-16 in 1st and 2nd V and 3rd NV
15-17 in 3rd V and 4th (open 1♦ with (11)12-14, 1♣ with 18+)

[lowerline]

Meckwell and Greco-Hampson are playing 15-17 in 3rd V and 4th, 14-16 otherwise.
Sontag-Weichsel are playing 15-17, but frequently upgrade 14-counts.

Meckwell have played a 9-12 range in 1st/2nd NV vs V, but don't play it anymore.

[Chamaco]

mikestar, on May 11 2006, 03:21 PM, said:

erki_, on May 11 2006, 02:55 PM, said:

If 1NT is 12-15 and 1D is natural unbalanced, then what is 1D-1M-1NT/2C/2D?

Luke's structure may differ, but this is what I play where 1NT is 12-15 and 1♦ is guaranteed unbalanced:

1♦-1M-2♣ is natural, showing 4+ clubs and 5+ diamonds, diamonds as long as or longer than clubs.

1♦-1M-2♦ is 6+ diamonds, one-suited (might choose this sequence with ♣xxxx on the side).

1♦-1♥-1NT is 4+ diamonds, 5+ clubs, clubs longer than diamonds.

1♦-1♠-1NT is as after 1♦-1♥ but there are two other possibities:
1) Exactly five diamonds and four hearts and too weak to reverse and not able to raise spades.
2) 1=4=4=4 shape.

Yep, that's how I play.

The 2C and 2D rebids are natural (2C is never canapè, 2D always 6+ bagger and 1NT is a catchall for hands that do not have a sensible rebid:
these hand types are either canapè diams/clubs OR hands with 4+ hearts that cannot reverse when responder bids 1S.

The (12)13-15 1NT scheme implies passing often 11 counts and sometimes bad 12 counts. This might seem a losing proposition, but in my experience, losses have been balanced by good results, and indeed, the system had a big improvement in making the 1D opening WAY less nebulous.
Both in partscore (competitive or not) and game bidding, responder's task bacame much much easier, knowing that opener is unbalanced.

[OscarKwok]

Following is copy from a log from a recent BBO vugraph broadcasts:

fred: you don't see many 10-12 notrumps in America at the highest levels these days. they were more in style a few years ago, but from what i can tell most of the experts decided that they did not work very well

Walddk2: You are hardly a supporter since you prefer 15-17 to 12-14 yourself

...

jtr: Didnt Meckwell play it?

fred: at one point Meckwell played 10-12 notrumps at some vulnerabilities, but not anymore, now they play 14-16 most of the time and 15-17 in a couple of positions

[Gerben42]

I sometimes play an agressive variation of Precision with this structure:

1st / 2nd seat:
1♣: 16+ balanced / 15+ unbalanced
1♦: always unbalanced, 3+♦
1NT: 12 - 15 balanced

3rd / 4th seat:
1♣: 18+ balanced / 17+ unbalanced
1♦: can be balanced
1NT: 15 - 17