[Free]

Plz don't start with any fancy gadgets you play with your partner. You play a standard system with strong jumpshifts, splinters,... I wonder if a strong jumpshift in ♥ is used or not.

[bearmum]

Free, on May 6 2006, 06:30 PM, said:

Plz don't start with any fancy gadgets you play with your partner.  You play a standard system with strong jumpshifts, splinters,...  I wonder if a strong jumpshift in ♥ is used or not.

If playing strong JS then surely 1S 3H is GF with 5+ hearts
1S 4♥ would be a splinter in ♠ IMO --
(but I would prefer to be playing Jacoby 2NT) but if that qualifies as a "fancy gadget" then disregard

[nickf]

I'll willingly be corrected but I thought strong jump shifts when out with lace up boots didn't they?

nickf
sydney

[1eyedjack]

Even if 3H is strong with Hearts I would not say that it guarantees a 6-carder, ie particularly when holding primary Spade support in addition.

[Cascade]

Who knows what is standard.

Best is not to make this bid unless you have discussed it with this partner.

Personally I like to play 3♥ as a splinter but as I said I would discuss this in advance or not make the bid. Using 3♥ as a splinter allows us the advantage of using the four-level for cue-bids.

[paulg]

There are often times when my understanding of the UK standard appears to be incomplete, but I feel I am on pretty strong ground this time.

If you respond 3♥, undiscussed, with a British player then you better have a strong hand with hearts. Either 6+ or 5+ with primary spade support.

We also know that 1♠-4♥ is natural and to play.

At a tournament you will find people playing weak jump shifts, bergen splinters, mini-splinters and normal splinters, but even there the vast majority will be playing strong jump shifts.

Paul

[foo]

cardsharp, on May 6 2006, 06:21 AM, said:

There are often times when my understanding of the UK standard appears to be incomplete, but I feel I am on pretty strong ground this time.

If you respond 3♥, undiscussed, with a British player then you better have a strong hand with hearts. Either 6+ or 5+ with primary spade support.

We also know that 1♠-4♥ is natural and to play.

At a tournament you will find people playing weak jump shifts, bergen splinters, mini-splinters and normal splinters, but even there the vast majority will be playing strong jump shifts.

Paul

...and on the other side of the "puddle"...

Without discussion, Standard here in NA is that 1S-3H is a Strong Jump Shift and 1S-4H! is a Splinter.

Without discussion, standard 2/1 GF here in NA is that 1S-3H is a Weak Jump Shift and 1S-4H is a Splinter.

IIRC, in BWS 1S-3H is a WJS and 1S-4H is a Splinter.

[zasanya]

I have found that a jump shift can have any one of the following meanings.
1)Strong : 16+ 5+ cards
2)Weak : 0-5 6+ card OR 0-8 6+ cards
3)Mini Splinter : 8-10 hcp
4)Fit Jump : support for opener with 5 card broken suit and invitational values
5)Bergen Normal/Reverse if Opening bid is Major
From earlier posts it appears some experts play it as normal splinter.New to me.
Which of these is standard? Strong is 'classic '.Weak is 'modern',others 'avant garde '
But standard?Ask your P or better still tell him.

[foo]

zasanya, on May 6 2006, 07:48 AM, said:

I have found that a jump shift can have any one of the following meanings.
1)Strong : 16+ 5+ cards
2)Weak : 0-5 6+ card OR 0-8 6+ cards
3)Mini Splinter :  8-10 hcp
4)Fit Jump : support for opener with 5 card broken suit and invitational values
5)Bergen Normal/Reverse if Opening bid is Major
From earlier posts it appears some experts play it as normal splinter.New to me.
Which of these is standard? Strong is 'classic '.Weak is 'modern',others 'avant garde '
But standard?Ask your P or better still tell him.

"Standard" here in NA refers to Standard American. The default is what we teach beginners and that is Strong Jump Shifts.

Also, got another use for the JS to add to your list:
6) Cliff Intermediate Jump Shifts
6+ cards in suit, good 9 to a bad 12, w/o support for Opener's suit.
Some also add a Suit Quality restriction on the suit jumped into.

Example good 9:
xx.AKQxxx.xx.xxx => 1S-3H!
Example bad 12:
Kx.QJxxxx.Kx.QJx => 1S-3H!
If requiring a good suit, the 2nd isn't good enough, and
Qx.KJxxxx.Kx.QJx would not be either.

[1eyedjack]

cardsharp, on May 6 2006, 12:21 PM, said:

We also know that 1♠-4♥ is natural and to play.

Well, I am UK-based and I don't know anyone who plays this, except possibly at the rubber bridge tables at the Portland club. Even if you play strong 2 openers (becoming a rarety even here in UK) there is a wide range to the 1S opener, so it is hard to construct a hand that has a play for 4H opposite a minimum 1S opener and has no play for slam opposite a maximum 1S opener with a Heart fit.

If you are sensible, the 4H response has to be narrowly defined, and that applies whether it is natural with long Hearts or some kind of Spade fit, so that opener's decision whether or not to consider investigating slam (and there will always be that possibility) will not put 5M at risk.

[paulg]

1eyedjack, on May 6 2006, 07:46 PM, said:

cardsharp, on May 6 2006, 12:21 PM, said:

We also know that 1♠-4♥ is natural and to play.

Well, I am UK-based and I don't know anyone who plays this, except possibly at the rubber bridge tables at the Portland club. Even if you play strong 2 openers (becoming a rarety even here in UK) there is a wide range to the 1S opener, so it is hard to construct a hand that has a play for 4H opposite a minimum 1S opener and has no play for slam opposite a maximum 1S opener with a Heart fit.

If you are sensible, the 4H response has to be narrowly defined, and that applies whether it is natural with long Hearts or some kind of Spade fit, so that opener's decision whether or not to consider investigating slam (and there will always be that possibility) will not put 5M at risk.

I think we are probably in agreement and perhaps I should have added preemptive to my description of 4♥ - sample hands might include xx QJT9xxxx x xx and x KQJTxxx xx xxx.

In particular, unlike the US, I have not seen many club players use the 4♥ bid as a splinter.

Paul

[han]

Free, on May 6 2006, 03:30 AM, said:

Plz don't start with any fancy gadgets you play with your partner. You play a standard system with strong jumpshifts, splinters,... I wonder if a strong jumpshift in ♥ is used or not.

I'm not sure I get the point of this question. You tell us that strong jump shifts are used, and then you ask whether 1S-3H is also a strong jump shift? I would think so..

[kenberg]

I had to vote for "other" but it is a bit misleading. I play strong jump shifts with some partners. 1S-3H is then a strong jump shift. It shows 5+ hearts not 6+.

I can imagine many uses for 1S-3H but if we have agreed to play strong jump shifts and I haven't been handed a list of exceptions then 1S-3H is a strong jump shift.

Why would someone think otherwise? I can well understand why someone might wish to play otherwise, but that is not the issue.

[barmar]

Hannie, on May 6 2006, 05:13 PM, said:

I'm not sure I get the point of this question. You tell us that strong jump shifts are used, and then you ask whether 1S-3H is also a strong jump shift? I would think so..

Some people play that strong jump shifts are only on when the sequence is 1X-2Y. So 1♣/♦-2♥ is a strong jump shift, but 1♠-3♣/♦ is not.

I recently adopted this agreement with one of my partners. The latter sequence shows a long suit with invitational values -- not good enough for a GF 2/1 bid. This clarifies an ambiguity in a sequence like 1♠-1NT(forcing)-2♥-3♣/♦ -- does this show a weak or intermediate hand?

But if you play WJS, the ambiguity goes away, because you show the weak hand by jumping immediately, and going through the forcing NT shows the intermediate hand.

[Double !]

FWIW: I still like strong jump shifts, and I still have my lace-up boots (for men) and am proud of it. Actually, they are hand-me-downs.


By the way, you left out fit bid as a viable option.

DHL

[dcvetkov]

Voted for other

Invitational hand with exactly 6 hearts. These hands come much more often then big ones. So not forcing and partner is allowed to pass with minimum hand