[jdonn]

whereagles, on May 2 2006, 02:14 PM, said:

jdonn, on May 2 2006, 06:25 PM, said:

Over the 3♥ bid on your suggested auction, why not 5♥?

I wouldn't do that to pard because even *I* don't know what 5♥ is

When I bid a suit, I tend to have that suit. When I jump, I tend to have a better hand than when I don't jump. I know, it's very complicated

[Fluffy]

Free, on May 2 2006, 02:48 PM, said:

I'd start with a standard stayman followed by a smolen 3♥ bid if it's necessary (I guess this is pretty standard?). Now partner will bid 2♥ which makes me very glad! I have small trumps to ruff, and partner hopefully has some good ♥s to control the suit. ♦ Splinter it is. Now North will probably accept since he doesn't have any lost values there. Now it depends on how you proceed, what kind of RKC you play,...

1NT - 2♣
2♥ - 4♦
4♠ - 4NT
5♣ - 5♦
5♠ - 6♥

Dear Frederick I doubt bidding 4NT with void in ♦ is a good pick.

My bidding would be 1NT-2♣-2♥-4♦-4♠-5♦-6♥. It isn't quite scientific though.

[Free]

So partner with ♥KQJx or KJxx is the same for you? You NEED ♥Q imo, that's why I'd RKC... Exclusion may be better, but it gets you too high imo.

[Blofeld]

Free, on May 3 2006, 04:59 AM, said:

So partner with ♥KQJx or KJxx is the same for you? You NEED ♥Q imo, that's why I'd RKC... Exclusion may be better, but it gets you too high imo.

I like Fluffy's auction quite a lot more than Free's. The 5♦ bid won't tell you about the ♥Q, but it will let partner make a decision based on the fact that you have a diamond void. With at most a 12 count outside of ♦s if lacking the ♥Q and ♥A you'll rest in 5♥.

[Winstonm]

It's always hard to bid slam when one hand has all the good trumps and the other the weak trumps, but here goes:

1N-2C (planning to Smolen over 2D)
2H-3S* New major at the 3 level after Stayman and major response confirms the
major and is a slam try - I think Hamman came up with this concept.
4C-4D Cues
4H-4S* Key bid. If partner is trying this hard for slam without taking control he
has a problem and that problem is...
6H. Obviously, from looking at my hand I can see the problem. Weak hearts.

Winston

[jdonn]

I know I've said this before, but it's suicide to look for slam in a suit where you have terrible trumps! How would all these slam auctions be different if partner's jack of hearts were in clubs instead? How are people avoiding the danger of the 5 level if he had Kx Axxx Axx AJxx (he wouldn't like that for slam??), where you could go down in 5♥ if hearts don't break with 6♣ a making!

I still maintain that peoples' answers in this thread are tainted by knowing both hands. It's easy to say you would go prancing around looking for a heart slam with Txxx when you can see here partner has KQJx. I guarantee if the opening hand in question were Kx KQxx Axx AJxx instead of Kx KQJx Axx Axxx, people would be showing us all their brilliant auctions to stay out of 6♥ or even to bid 6♣.

[xx1943]

jdonn, on May 3 2006, 05:25 PM, said:

I know I've said this before, but it's suicide to look for slam in a suit where you have terrible trumps! How would all these slam auctions be different if partner's jack of hearts were in clubs instead? How are people avoiding the danger of the 5 level if he had Kx Axxx Axx AJxx (he wouldn't like that for slam??), where you could go down in 5♥ if hearts don't break with 6♣ a making!

I still maintain that peoples' answers in this thread are tainted by knowing both hands. It's easy to say you would go prancing around looking for a heart slam with Txxx when you can see here partner has KQJx. I guarantee if the opening hand in question were Kx KQxx Axx AJxx instead of Kx KQJx Axx Axxx, people would be showing us all their brilliant auctions to stay out of slam.

clap clap clap 100% ditto

That was the reason, why I posted this one here in the forum.
Imho it is result mechandising to find a nice bidding-sequence to 6♥ for this actual hands without saying how to procced when opener has another hand.

I'm interested in a bidding, which covers all or at least the most of North's possible hands.

Perhaps someone can throw the South hand in an simulator with the North hand constrained to 15-17 HCP and 2434 distribution.

What about Stephen's BridgeBrowser, can he find a solution to this problem?

Regards

Al

[jdonn]

xx1943, on May 3 2006, 10:44 AM, said:

That was the reason, why I posted this one here in the forum.
Imho it is result mechandising to find a nice bidding-sequence to 6♥ for this actual hands without saying how to procced when opener has another hand.

I'm interested in a bidding, which covers all or at least the most of North's possible hands.

How about an auction I recommended before (after someone else recommended something similar.) It is completely natural (other than the original transfer), which is the best kind of auction to have.

1NT 2♥ 2♠ 3♣ 3♥ 5♥ 6♥

The difference here is south was willing to let the hearts go until NORTH could mention them, and emphasized clubs over hearts. Now if north didn't have very good hearts he could easily go back to clubs.

[inquiry]

I doubt simulation or bridgebrowser will help. What you need is an auction that allows responder to STRESS the need for good trumps important. If all responder needed was a AQxx or KQxx he could always have used blackwood. Even AKxx you could blackwood (but AKxx would be good enough trumps on the "do you have good trump" guestion). This is why in the auction I chose I invited slam, then bid to the five level as responder rather than using blackwood, to look for "good" trumps.

Could the five leve be unsafe? If partners KQ of hearts were KQ of diamonds, you might lose 3♥ on 4-1 split. but the chances of that are small. Partner is known to have ♣ACE, ♠King and slam interest himself since he bypassed 4♥, And if he had AKQ of diamonds in the face of a 4♦ cuebid (here with a void that others objected to), then he doesn't understand the nature of hand evaluation as you must be short in ♦.

[whereagles]

Why do people insist on a heart slam here? I'm sure that getting to the club slam is already worth 10/10 in a bidding contest

[inquiry]

whereagles, on May 3 2006, 11:02 AM, said:

Why do people insist on a heart slam here? I'm sure that getting to the club slam is already worth 10/10 in a bidding contest

Really, you think 6♣ gets full score in a bidding contest? Even at mp?

6♣ goes down on any 4-1 split where the heart ace is with the long suit, and goes down on 5-0 ♥ split where hand with hearts in on the lead. Note 6♣ and the majoity of 6♥ will be down on the 5-0 heart split as well.

6♥ on the other hand is a little safer. True, someone after a singleton ♣ lead played in hearts, someone could win the heart ACE and give their partner a club ruff, but now at least, the heart ACE has to be in the hand with the long clubs. That is less likely, and you will survive more than slighlty more than half the 4-1 club splits becase the heart ace will be in the hand with the short ♣.

[jdonn]

inquiry, on May 3 2006, 11:11 AM, said:

whereagles, on May 3 2006, 11:02 AM, said:

Why do people insist on a heart slam here? I'm sure that getting to the club slam is already worth 10/10 in a bidding contest

Really, you think 6♣ gets full score in a bidding contest? Even at mp?

6♣ goes down on any 4-1 split where the heart ace is with the long suit, and goes down on 5-0 ♥ split where hand with hearts in on the lead. Note 6♣ and the majoity of 6♥ will be down on the 5-0 heart split as well.

6♥ on the other hand is a little safer. True, someone after a singleton ♣ lead played in hearts, someone could win the heart ACE and give their partner a club ruff, but now at least, the heart ACE has to be in the hand with the long clubs. That is less likely, and you will survive more than slighlty more than half the 4-1 club splits becase the heart ace will be in the hand with the short ♣.

All true, plus not to get all mathematical but the last time I checked, 1430>1370

[whereagles]

Let's get reasonable. Responder's hand is hard to bid, and, worst, it's the kind of hand where, on the one hand 7-something might be a complete lay-down, and on the other hand 3NT might easily be the limit.

Reaching the good 6♣ on natural methods is hard enough already. Trying to argue that one has the elements to bid to 6♥ naturally is plain results-merchandizing to me.

[Codo]

jdonn, on May 4 2006, 12:25 AM, said:

I know I've said this before, but it's suicide to look for slam in a suit where you have terrible trumps! How would all these slam auctions be different if partner's jack of hearts were in clubs instead? How are people avoiding the danger of the 5 level if he had Kx Axxx Axx AJxx (he wouldn't like that for slam??), where you could go down in 5♥ if hearts don't break with 6♣ a making!

I still maintain that peoples' answers in this thread are tainted by knowing both hands. It's easy to say you would go prancing around looking for a heart slam with Txxx when you can see here partner has KQJx. I guarantee if the opening hand in question were Kx KQxx Axx AJxx instead of Kx KQJx Axx Axxx, people would be showing us all their brilliant auctions to stay out of 6♥ or even to bid 6♣.

There is no reason, why the Heart slam is better or worse then the Club Slam.
You need good Hearts in many cases. In the given methods, you cannot show a three suiter, so you have to choose Clubs or Hearts as a second suit.
I doubt, that a majority of players will think, that
1 NT 2 ♥ 2♠ 3♣ 3♥ shows 4 Hearts, looking for a thirs suit in pds hand. This is simply a waste of bidding space, because these hands rarely happen.

So anybody has to decide, whether he prefers the major or the minor. There are reasons for both cases: Your Clubs are stronger, but if you choose Hearts, you are
able to find out about all Heart Honours, not just the ace, you can use your small trumps for ruffing and, if it makes, it just counts more.

And maybe people simply have better tools to show a major two-suiter compared to a spade/Club hand.

This has nothing to do with seeing both hands or the pure result.

[mikeh]

In my view, no-one would aim for the ♣ slam: as south, the chances of any slam are marginal at best, so South should make his bidding plan in anticipation of finding the best game with slam as a secondary possibility.

In that light, south will and should treat his hand as a major 2-suiter: 4♥ is a much more probable landing spot than 5♣.

Hence my suggested auction that involved stayman (intending to smolen) followed by a slam-try 3♠ jump, agreeing ♥ but otherwise fairly non-specific. N cues (driving to slam but going slow in case 7 is biddable) and S signs off: he does not cue 4♦ for reasons set out in my earlier post.

The point is not just that 1430 beats 1370, as jdonn mentioned, but also that 620 beats 600.... and requires fewer tricks.

A secondary point is that N MIGHT drive to slam with KQxx in trump, but certainly would not with worse trump... and if N held only KQxx in trump... that is not a good slam, but we have all been in worse... any 3-2 break with the A onside or any doubleton J brings it home (absent a ruff somewhere).

[whereagles]

mikeh, on May 4 2006, 03:00 PM, said:

1. In my view, no-one would aim for the ♣ slam: as south, the chances of any slam are marginal at best,

2. so South should make his bidding plan in anticipation of finding the best game with slam as a secondary possibility.

1. There are good reasons to give up on slam, but I don't find marginality strong enough by itself.

2. If you are willing to give up on slam, then the 'Stayman + 3♥' plan is fine. But such plan is as good in finding the right game as is bad in getting to a slam.

In fact, the only way I see to bid a slam sensibly after 1NT 2♣ is

1NT 2♣
2♥ 5♥ <-- asking for good trumps
6♥

but that's rather double-dummy.

[foo]

xx1943, on May 2 2006, 07:07 AM, said:

mr1303, on May 2 2006, 01:57 PM, said:

This is how I'll bid it:

1NT 2C (Stayman)
2H 4D (splinter agreeing hearts)
4NT (RKCB) 5D (1 or 4)
6H

You would splinter agreeing hearts with this lousy suit not fearing to find partner with
Kx, Axxx, AQx, Axx

The hands, N Opens:
♠K6♥KQJ8♦A82♣AT62

♠AQJ97♥T754♦♣KQ83


1N-2C;2H-2S;3N-4D;
and now Opener pauses for thought:
"GOP has 5♠, 4♥, a GF hand and is cuebidding ♦'s when I'm looking at the DA. The expected cue bid would be in a Major. Playing Standard, we cue bid A's before K's and without any A's GOP can't be strong enough to be making this obvious slam try.
What's going on? GOP must have 1-D in a slam try hand.
If GOP has 1 A, we belong in 6. If GOP has 2 A's, I should investigate 7.
4N."
When GOP shows 1 A, 6H will be the contract.

If Opener does not have the DA, then they will have the HA instead.
Giving Opener solid trumps opposite a 54?? GF hand evidently making a slam try by cuebidding the DA.
Opener's reaction holding that control rich 17 HCP hand is going to be to either cue bid that HA or bid 1430.
Either way you will get to 6H.

The direct 4D splinter:
1N-2C;2H-4D
is more risky, but not completely outrageous given that the hands where things will work out are far more likely than problem hands like the Kx.Axxx.AQx.Axx noted.

Bottom line is that I'd choose the sequence most likely to get Us to slam when we have the values and controls in whatever partnership I was playing that board in at the time and only worry about issues like value location if I was in a partenership that rated to be able to handle the more subtle auctions and their inferences.