[han]

Pass and 1S are both fine with me, it depends mostly on with whom I play.

[jdonn]

This hand is really not worth opening. That is not to say that opening couldn't work, but every honor is poorly placed and downgradable.

I always thought Zar points were kind of dumb, and this hand does nothing to change my mind. It says this hand has a little to spare before not being an opener? K&R is much more accurate, though if people use their noodles none of these things are necessary. K&R increase the value of this hand by over 4 points if you move AK and a Q to spades, which seems pretty accurate.

I would rather open
KQ98xx xx Ax xxx than
98xxxx Qx AK Qxx
which is how silly I think opening is on this hand.

[xx1943]

Ty all for responding,

my pd opened 2♠ indeed, found me with 0 5 6 2, went down 3 against nothing, complained his bad luck and told me what cards he expected from me.

Scoring: IMP

---

West  North East South

    -         -     Pass    2♠
Pass   Pass  Pass


Cheers

Al

[joshs]

I thought for about 1 second before passing. Maybe less. This hand has horrible values. A terrible Primary suit, unsupported Q's, one of which is in a doubleton and AK tight which is also a slight downgrade. I think that this is worse than a random ten count. So unless you open random ten counts, I think pass is clear....

Note: This hand evaluates to 9.5 in my evaluation methods, without taking into account the AK tight which is a slight additional downgrade.

K&R gives it 9.4. Thats about right.

[xx1943]

Hi
another question: if the South hand is opened 1♠, how should the biding go
1) if WEST bids 2♣ (which is even at IMP a sound bid imho)?
2) if West passes ?

Al

[pclayton]

I pass and thought I was losing my mind until I saw the last posts from Justin and the 2 Josh's. 1♠ is possible I suppose if I'm playing Precision where pard should accept openings on this kind of drek.

A weak 2 would never occur to me on such a crappy suit AND good defence. Its simply a mischaracterization of the hand.

At San Diego, my partner opened vul / vul 2nd seat 3♠ on: ♠9876542 ♥x ♦xx ♣AKx.

I was not happy.

[whereagles]

pass pass 1♠ pass
1NT pass 2♣ pass
2♦ (all pass)

pass pass 1♠ 2♣
pass 2NT pass pass
pass

[whereagles]

pclayton, on Apr 26 2006, 03:46 PM, said:

At San Diego, my partner opened vul / vul 2nd seat 3♠ on: ♠9876542 ♥x ♦xx ♣AKx.

I was not happy.

DOH! That hand opens 2♥

[pclayton]

xx1943, on Apr 26 2006, 07:43 AM, said:

Hi
another question: if the South hand is opened 1♠, how should the biding go
1) if WEST bids 2♣ (which is even at IMP a sound bid imho)?
2) if West passes ?

Al

I guess your hand would make a neg x and you'd be off the hook, since east would probably raise clubs.

If West passes, I guess your hand bids a forcing NT and your pard still gets to play 2♠.

[pclayton]

whereagles, on Apr 26 2006, 07:47 AM, said:

pass pass 1♠ pass
1NT pass 2♣ pass
2♦ (all pass)

pass pass 1♠ 2♣
pass 2NT pass pass
pass

Eagles, you slay me sometimes.

[inquiry]

jdonn, on Apr 26 2006, 10:30 AM, said:

I always thought Zar points were kind of dumb, and this hand does nothing to change my mind.

Well to be fair to ZAR and his points, on "pure" count it is 27. He says to downgrade singleton and doubleton Queens and jacks by a point, so it reduces to 26 due to Qx doubleton. HE then adds that plus factors are honors in long suits and minus factors are controls in short suits. Both controls in a very short suit (AK doubleton) is another minus factor (at least one), and no honor at all in the only long suit is another. This is clearly less than 26 ZARS. How much less is open to personal preferences... (all this noted in the earlier post).

jdonn from above deriding ZAR said:

I would rather open
KQ98xx xx Ax xxx than
98xxxx Qx AK Qxx
which is how silly I think opening is on this hand.

Zar would count your first hand as 25 ZARs with no substractions and with bonus for good honors and spots in spades. Since he opens 25 ZAR hands with SPADES this would be an opening hand for him (he actually would probably open 2♠.

The second hand, has 27 ZARS, a clear pt off for Qx of ♥ (26 now), and two more subtractions for nothing in spades and all controls in short suit. Zar would clearly think (and his math would support it), that your evaluation that the first hand you show is better than the second.

But back to Als' question.

A) If WEST bids 2♣ it goes all pass or East takes some action, but NS is out of auction.

If West passes and NS are playing 2/1, north tries 1NT, south 2♣ and if not playing BART, north bids 2♦, if playing BART, I guess 2♥.

[jdonn]

xx1943, on Apr 26 2006, 10:43 AM, said:

1) if WEST bids 2♣ (which is even at IMP a sound bid imho)?

AUUUGGHHH!!! 2♣, good grief! I don't know about other people, but I have found it is bad for my bridge game to attempt to go for 1400 on partscore hands. Frankly, I might go my entire life before I overcall vul on the 2 level in A9xxx of a minor. Is there a problem with defending when you have KQJ of the opponent's major and an awful suit to bid?

[han]

jdonn, on Apr 26 2006, 10:57 AM, said:

xx1943, on Apr 26 2006, 10:43 AM, said:

1) if WEST bids 2♣ (which is even at IMP a sound bid imho)?

AUUUGGHHH!!! 2♣, good grief! I don't know about other people, but I have found it is bad for my bridge game to attempt to go for 1400 on partscore hands. Frankly, I might go my entire life before I overcall vul on the 2 level in A9xxx of a minor. Is there a problem with defending when you have KQJ of the opponent's major and an awful suit to bid?

Well put!

[kenberg]

Maybe I could open 1S, lho could overcall 2C, and then we could all send out for another round of drinks.

I voted for pass. I think the choice between 1S and pass is close. I think 2C is not a good overcall, and not close. I think opening 2S is from another planet.

Ken

[ochinko]

Hi all!

I was the offending party.

Al, you're not fair. The scoring was MP, not IMP.

I wouldn't dream of opening 2Sp this hand vulnerable. Honestly!

I figured opps were likely to have a heart fit, and it's even more likely that we had a spade fit. If I was going to compete to level 2, better do that undoubled by bidding 2Sp right away. Ok, you disregard Zar, but what about the Law?

[awm]

I wonder how many people would open on:

Jxxxx
Qxx
AK
Qxx

I think this hand is probably worse than the hand given, hcp not withstanding. Of course these are both bad hands, but I see very few people pass 4333 12-counts these days, much less 5332 12-counts.

Funny how magical the 12th high card point seems to be.

[jdonn]

awm, on Apr 26 2006, 01:22 PM, said:

I wonder how many people would open on:

Jxxxx
Qxx
AK
Qxx

I think this hand is probably worse than the hand given, hcp not withstanding. Of course these are both bad hands, but I see very few people pass 4333 12-counts these days, much less 5332 12-counts.

Funny how magical the 12th high card point seems to be.

I would be no more tempted to open that hand than the original hand. But yes, there are a lot of 'point counters' out there.

[kenberg]

So the actual situation was nv at mps? In this revised form I still would not open 2S, but perhaps some would. My thinking is that I don't know that I want a spade lead if they play it, and I don't have all that good a reason to believe it should be played in spades if we play it. It's true that 2S is preemptive, but the price for our own constructive bidding is too high for me. This no doubt has something to do with general approach to the game and since everyone can find hands to support their appraoch, it's hard to change any minds. When I open 2 of something I like some, preferably a majority, of my points to be in the suit I am opening. I don't insist on having a lot of points, I just want them in my suit.

But nv at mps? I upgrade 2S from "nuts" to "not my style".

[pigpenz]

either pass or 1♠, I favor 1♠ cause usually the one who can fire the first shot has some advantage from my experience