[Gerben42]

Scoring: IMP

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2♠ (weak 2) p 4♠

Your bid?

[whereagles]

5♥ is probably the practical shot, but playing with a pet pard you can try dbl + 5♦.

The other possibility is pass. It may very well be that you're just being jerked around..

[hotShot]

I'll try 5♥.

I'm sure we have 4♥, and i don't see 4♠-3 to cover our loss.
♥Kxx ♦Kxxx might be enough to make 5♥, but not enough to get more than 4♠-2.

[helene_t]

I have quick tricks in my not-so-long suits. So I don't mind defending. So I pass. Unless double would be penalty.

If I must bid something, it'll be 5♥. Double works fine if partner bids 5♦ but if he bids clubs I'll be in an awkward situation. First double and then 5♦ shows longer diamonds, First double and then 5♥ is not very flexible. Then I might as well bid 5♥ directly so at least I don't overstate my values.

[Codo]

Even if I mismoused for "others" I would pass with this hand. They are vul so they tend to have "something" and they can even make it and it is for from clear, that 5 H will make or be cheap sacrifice..
At MPs I had thought about a Penalty double, but this seems to be no possibility in your inquiry.

[pbleighton]

Pass. I would much rather declare than defend, but....

Peter

[Echognome]

I'm a wimp when it comes to these problems. I pass because partner couldn't act over 2♠ with known shortness. I'm sure we can construct hands where we have a slam and partner couldn't act, but I think they are rare. There's a possibility of a double game swing here. I just think it's too small too worry about. I think the biggest potential upside of bidding is that we have a good sacrifice. However, I'm looking at 3 pretty secure tricks in my hand and partner may lead a club giving us our 4th. The biggest downside of bidding is that RHO may easily have a good hand and we just turned our +50 into -500.

[jdonn]

It sounds like a cop out, but I think 5♥ is ok (x Kxxx xxx xxxxx is on 3-3 diamonds and 2-1 hearts to make, so the argument that partner is known to not have takeout double values of 2♠ doesn't matter), and pass is ok since bidding could get you in a lot of trouble. I'm going with 5♥. Who knows, maybe RHO bids 5♠. I really do wish I had the heart jack though.

The one thing that is clear to me is any attempt to show both red suits is silly. If partner is 2-2 or 3-3 why should he ever choose the right one? Even if you manage to imply longer hearts somehow, should partner still go right with 2-3?

Gerben, why did you include passing if partner gets doubled in 5♣ I mean it's one thing to be comprehensive in the options, but honestly...

[mikeh]

I would pass, because the vul opps will tend to have their bids, when I am looking at these ♠.

Any bid could see us trading +100 against 4♠ for -800 or more.

Admittedly, I could be getting robbed, but sometimes the cost of finding out exceeds the benefit, and this seems like one of those.

Were I to bid, it would be 5♥: as jdonn showed, 5♥ does not need much.... of course, it does need something specific

BTW, would or should we be worried that partner, with a maximum pass and good support, might ruin our brave 5♥ cal by raising to an ummakable slam?

[cherdano]

The other problem about double is that partner tends to take it out when he should leave it in (long clubs), and leave it in when he should take it out (not so long clubs, thus double fit in the red suits).

It seems to me that 5♥ is more likely to go down than to make, so I pass. But it feels dangerous at IMPs...

Arend

[whereagles]

jdonn, on Apr 27 2006, 03:36 PM, said:

The one thing that is clear to me is any attempt to show both red suits is silly. If partner is 2-2 or 3-3 why should he ever choose the right one? Even if you manage to imply longer hearts somehow, should partner still go right with 2-3?

Why? With 22 he'd have to have 2227. Unlikely. With 33 or 32/23 he'll have 5+ clubs, so he's going to bids 5♣, after which you correct.

Note that dbl + 5♦ is at least a 54 because with a 55 the bid is 4NT over 4♠. In fact, there's a case for correcting to 5♥ showing the 64 if pard doesn't bid diamonds.

I think double is better than 5♥ because you can still play diamonds. There are a few hands where pard might have diamonds and no hearts.

[jdonn]

whereagles, on Apr 27 2006, 10:51 AM, said:

jdonn, on Apr 27 2006, 03:36 PM, said:

The one thing that is clear to me is any attempt to show both red suits is silly. If partner is 2-2 or 3-3 why should he ever choose the right one? Even if you manage to imply longer hearts somehow, should partner still go right with 2-3?

Why? With 22 he'd have to have 2227. Unlikely. With 33 or 32/23 he'll have 5+ clubs, so he's going to bids 5♣, after which you correct.

Note that dbl + 5♦ is at least a 54 because with a 55 the bid is 4NT over 4♠. In fact, there's a case for correcting to 5♥ showing the 64 if pard doesn't bid diamonds.

I think double is better than 5♥ because you can still play diamonds. There are a few hands where pard might have diamonds and no hearts.

You seem to be implying the double followed by 5♥ would show no interest in the minor partner bids, just a prayer that he would have bid the other one. I think these doubles then corrections have a well known meaning as just the opposite, showing some interest in other strains. I think your partner should rebid 6♣ over that on some hands where he is, say, 1237. The only other remaining option is double followed by 5♦, which I still maintain is a ridiculous action.

[jdonn]

mikeh, on Apr 27 2006, 10:45 AM, said:

BTW, would or should we be worried that partner, with a maximum pass and good support, might ruin our brave 5♥ cal by raising to an ummakable slam?

No In fact if he raised to slam I would expect a fair chance to make. Partner should cut you a LOT!!!! of slack in these auctions, passing when he thinks slam is making and accepting all the missed slams. He shouldn't raise to slam unless he thinks he is missing a grand, and even then should think twice...

[Al_U_Card]

Jlall, on Apr 27 2006, 09:12 AM, said:

Oh partner has x AKxx Kxx xxxxx? Sorry pard

Would you even play with someone who didn't double with that hand at equal vul?

[luis]

Well it's certainly a nasty problem.

Options are pass, 5♥ and 4NT
It's true that pd has passed over 2♠ with shortness but I wonder if pd has to bid with something like:
x
KJxx
KJxx
Qxxx

Or similars, where not only 5♥ or 5♦ are good games but you are quite close to a slam even with the wasted cQ.

So I'm between 5♥ and 4NT
I think I will choose 5♥ and hope for the best.

Luis

[mikeh]

jdonn, on Apr 27 2006, 11:02 AM, said:

mikeh, on Apr 27 2006, 10:45 AM, said:

BTW, would or should we be worried that partner, with a maximum pass and good support, might ruin our brave 5♥ cal by raising to an ummakable slam?

No In fact if he raised to slam I would expect a fair chance to make. Partner should cut you a LOT!!!! of slack in these auctions, passing when he thinks slam is making and accepting all the missed slams. He shouldn't raise to slam unless he thinks he is missing a grand, and even then should think twice...

I agree with this.... but it would be interesting to post a companion hand that would pass 2♠ and then have the problem over 5♥: my guess would be that many players would reason that they have undisclosed extras opposite a vul 5♥ bidder and hence they have to bid 6... say on void Axx Qxxx KJ10xxx

My belief is that many players are able to play the hands very well, and almost as many are very tough defenders. Purely constructive bidding is well understood by all experts and many advanced players, while part-score competitive bidding can be complex but usually entails only modest swings at imps. The area in which the very best seem to me to consistently show their edge over the rest of us is in high-level competitive decisions: I am sometimes in awe of, for example, the Italian team's judgement in this area. So I think the posted problem is a good one, and maybe (if I remember, which I won't) I will post an imaginary companion hand for a 5♥ call and see the reactions

[pclayton]

I think this one of the toughest problems I've seen in months here. All I know is that anyone who thinks they know they answer to this is seriously delusional.

I opt for 5♥, and I am not convinced at all about my answer. I'd like to be at the table for this one.

Others have stated the pros and cons of Pass vs 5♥. I'll just add that 5♥ has a lot of ways to win; a lot of ways to lose a little, and one way to lose a TON.

[Kalvan14]

It goes against my grain, but ultimately I pass. I do prefer to gain a lil a lot of times, than big one time only.

[Impact]

Double or 4NT are awful as
a) you would be surprised if partner bid anything except C - your void;
b)given his all but certain shortage in S, he might even have a jump to 6C on a void in S and decent 6 card suit eg KQJxxx...
c) the difference between a 4card suit (D) and a 6 card suit (H) is dramatic. - and for partner to prefer H is exceptionally unlikely. Further, converting any bids to D or H only continues the misstatement of the strength of your hand -assuming you survived the last round.

That leaves Pass and 5H as the viable options. You hold 3 Quick tricks against 4S, with almost any card in partner's hand giving you some winning defensive prospects.

Accordingly, you are odds on for a positive if you pass - and guessing completely if you bid (but the upside of a godd guess is considerably better).

If the SK was the DK - notwithstanding the same 3 tricks I would be inclined to bid 5H, but although I am usually a bidder, the downside of this hand is just too great, but it is that close.

If one could assume that most others would face the same problem I think that pass has an even higher upside as many will go badly wrong, so whether it is imps or MPs you will still be reasonably placed.

Of course, if it is a straight teams game you would want to know what your teammates' arrangements were....

So Pass for me, but really all I would need would be the HJ to bid 5H - notwithstanding the downside!