[pclayton]

You are playing in one of those early morning games before work. You call "last hand" and defend a boring 3N. Just as you are about to leave, BBO gives you as dealer:

♠AT ♥KQT8xx ♦A ♣AJxx

Question 1: Is this hand good enough to become late for your 9:00 AM meeting?

OK, lets say the answer is yes and you open 1♥. 2♦ on your left, 2♠ by pard, SIX DIAMONDS on your right.

What now? By the way, don't worry about the meeting, someone called and said they were going to be about 10 minutes late.

[whereagles]

This depends SO much on pard and opps that I have no idea what I'd bid.

Perhaps a forcing pass, hoping that pard will be able to do something clever.

[luis]

No, the hand is not good enough to stay :-)
I prefer hands where I have nothing so I can play the defense.
When you have a nice hand they start preempting here and there and it becomes painful as in this very precise example.

I would double with a normal 1♥ opening so I have to pass here showing a not normal 1♥ opening. Maybe pd can bid 6♥, maybe he will double in that case I think I will bid 6♠.

Luis

[han]

What is the vulnerability? I'm not at all sure how this is going to effect my decision, but somehow it seems relevant.

I guess pass is forcing because it is so clear that the opponents are not bidding this to make. I hope that partner sees it this way too...

[pclayton]

everybody vul....

[han]

OK, then I'm passing and passing partner's likely double.

It does sound like the opponents think we have a grand, but that may not be true, and I have no clue which slam to bid anyway.

[jdonn]

Can I ask everyone what makes pass forcing here? I'm not saying it isn't forcing, I just want to know the rule or basis on which people are assuming pass is forcing. I'm interested in hearing the rules people state.

The one thing about which I'm sure is that the determination of pass being forcing should be based on the 2♠ bid by us, not any crazy jump by them like 6♦ (which Hannie seems to suggest creates a forcing pass on us). RHO could have a freak like Axxxx x Kxxxxxx - and then who knows if we want to be doubling or saving or neither. A freak like that isn't so likely a priori, but is not at all unlikely given the condition that RHO has bid 6♦ on SOME hand. Here we can see 6♦ must be on a very weak hand, but we can't be certain of that from the auction alone if we weren't so strong. For another thing, 'seems like it should be forcing since they did something crazy' is not a well defined rule, and it won't always be clear when it applies or not.

Are people just saying a 2 level bid by responder in competition creates a forcing pass on our side at all levels? I'm not so sure about that either, though I wouldn't mind a rule that defines which levels it is/isn't forcing on. I have seen rules likes it is forcing on our side on the 2 level and on all levels starting with 4, or 5. Anyway enough by me, what are peoples' thoughts?

[joshs]

There are different styles on
a. how much is promised by 2S
b. how much is needed for a forcing pass

My preferences are:
a. the 2S bid may be shaded by about 2 points relative to a game force, but not much more than that. (This is stronger hand requirment than the common "does not promise a rebid style" where 2S might be KJTxxx Ax x xxxx)

b. all game invitational+ bids, that were not based on a fit, establish a forcing pass if neither played had a chance to limit themselves subsequently to sub-game values

So here we are in a force even after 1H-2D-2S-3D by the way I like to play.

Note that the auction had gone 1H-2D-3D-6D, b would not apply.

c. game invitational bids in a suit, establish a forcing pass at the 5 level or higher if neither player had a chance to limit themselves subsequently to sub-game values

So here 1H-2D-3D-6D would be a forcing pass situation

Note that my c, is a somewhat agressive agreement that will lead to some -550's and the like, but I think its worth it to be able to sort out if we prefer declaring or defending in the 95% of the cases where we go plus from at least one of those two options...

In some partnerships, I play that the c situation sets up a forcing pass at all levels. I find this useful, especially at mps, but it is agressive. I actually prefer this agreement, especially if you systematically have a way of showing a mixed raise, so the limit+ bid is never shaded.

[han]

jdonn, on Apr 25 2006, 04:35 PM, said:

Can I ask everyone what makes pass forcing here? I'm not saying it isn't forcing, I just want to know the rule or basis on which people are assuming pass is forcing. I'm interested in hearing the rules people state.

The one thing about which I'm sure is that the determination of pass being forcing should be based on the 2♠ bid by us, not any crazy jump by them like 6♦ (which Hannie seems to suggest creates a forcing pass on us). RHO could have a freak like Axxxx x Kxxxxxx - and then who knows if we want to be doubling or saving or neither. A freak like that isn't so likely a priori, but is not at all unlikely given the condition that RHO has bid 6♦ on SOME hand. Here we can see 6♦ must be on a very weak hand, but we can't be certain of that from the auction alone if we weren't so strong. For another thing, 'seems like it should be forcing since they did something crazy' is not a well defined rule, and it won't always be clear when it applies or not.

Are people just saying a 2 level bid by responder in competition creates a forcing pass on our side at all levels? I'm not so sure about that either, though I wouldn't mind a rule that defines which levels it is/isn't forcing on. I have seen rules likes it is forcing on our side on the 2 level and on all levels starting with 4, or 5. Anyway enough by me, what are peoples' thoughts?

Well, I hope it was clear that I wasn't at all convinced that pass is forcing. I was quite confused by the conviction of the responses that posted before me. I know that for me 2S does NOT create a forcing pass.

It is true that "they did something crazy so pass is forcing" is not a well-defined rule (and I certainly don't have such an agreement with any partner), but on the other hand I am reasonably positive that partner realises that they are not making 6D (and that he knows I know this). So I am fairly confident that partner won't pass it out, and that partner will interpret my pass as a willingness to move on.

[pclayton]

Well, even if pass is forcing (does anyone have Kantar's reference on this?) why would we make it? Do we really want to encourage pard to try 6S?

FWIW, the guy across the table isn't renowned for his reliability...

[mikeh]

pclayton, on Apr 25 2006, 06:15 PM, said:

Well, even if pass is forcing (does anyone have Kantar's reference on this?) why would we make it? Do we really want to encourage pard to try 6S?

FWIW, the guy across the table isn't renowned for his reliability...

No, but we do want him to bid 6♥: over which we bid 7.

So for me the forcing pass, expecting to hear double.

As for why it is forcing: see justin's post

[whereagles]

jdonn, on Apr 25 2006, 09:35 PM, said:

Can I ask everyone what makes pass forcing here?

Robson/Segal's rules: any 'invitational or better' bid sets up a forcing pass if opps bid to the 5-level.

[cherdano]

Jlall, on Apr 26 2006, 05:28 AM, said:

If partner did bid 6S and I had this, I honestly wouldn't feel too badly lol.

You would not be worried about missing 7?

[pclayton]

OK, thanks for the replies. I chose 6♥, since I really didn't trust my pard.

Here's what I bought:

---

You get the J♦ lead, covered and you win.

How to proceed?

[Echognome]

Easy to make double dummy. I guess both black suits and the location of the ♥J and/or A. Now I always make when it's possible.

[pclayton]

Wow - it ended at that???