[Cascade]

bid_em_up, on Apr 22 2006, 02:47 AM, said:

Cascade, on Apr 21 2006, 02:54 AM, said:

4NT in response to a takeout double also shows two suits but not necessarily 5-5 so that we can negotiate a fit at the five-level and so that doubler can double with off-shape hands and reduce the risk of playing a silly fit (or is that a non-fit) at the five-level.

Seems to me you have answered your own question.....and that your partnership should handle accordingly.

4H p p X p 4N p 5D all pass

Actually the hand came up in my teaching session not in my partnership bidding or play.

I was particularly curious about when you would pull to 5♦ over a 4♠ overcall. Maybe I should have presented the problem like that but I was also interested in the immediate action from the East hand.

Even so I am not completely sure what is best from the East hand and then if that is 4♠ when it is best to pull.

I am sure what our methods are but still not what judgement to use here.

[bid_em_up]

Cascade, on Apr 21 2006, 02:23 PM, said:

Actually the hand came up in my teaching session not in my partnership bidding or play.

I was particularly curious about when you would pull to 5♦ over a 4♠ overcall.  Maybe I should have presented the problem like that but I was also interested in the immediate action from the East hand.

Even so I am not completely sure what is best from the East hand and then if that is 4♠ when it is best to pull. 

I am sure what our methods are but still not what judgement to use here.

Oh. In that case, I would concern myself more with teaching East to double with this hand than worrying about teaching West when to pull 4S to 5D.

The West hand should NEVER (imo) override East's decision to bid 4S since his hand is an unknown. East could quite easily be AKQxxxx xx x AQx (a more appropriate 4S call) and pulling to 5D on the West hand can only serve to prevent partner from making similar calls again. East did not ask for partners participation in determining the contract, and West should respect that. End of story.

I fail to see why so many appear to believe they need to bid 4S (thereby making a unilateral bidding decision) instead of doubling with their 20 pt. hand. The only possible explanation is the often (ill)-quoted school of thought that says "always bid 4S over 4H". If you choose this methodology, then sometimes you simply must accept the accompanying ridiculous results and move on to the next board.

As always, jmoo.

[Codo]

There are good reasons to bid 4 Spade:
1. This is the only way to play this contract.
2. PD tends to have some length in Club. The chances are great, that he will bid 5 Club.
And if you compare, what you need from Pd to make 4 Spade and what you need to make 5 Club, you better bid 4 Spade.

[pclayton]

I'd bid 4♠ with the east hand. What it lacks in a great suit it makes up in extra strength. How can I possible double with this? What am I supposed to do over 5♣?

I really don't know what I'd do if 4♠ gets whacked.

Once again, I am very much against folks posting both hands atthe outset of a thread.

[Cascade]

Sorry about that Phil.

I was more interested in the general situation rather than the specific hand.

That is what criteria would you use to pull 4♠ having already passed.

And what criteria you would use to bid again whether you have doubled or bid 4♠ initially.

While the particular hand I posted was interesting for me it was motivation to think about the general situation rather than just a problem in itself.

Thanks to all who have responded. Of course I am still interested in further opinions.

[pclayton]

NP Wayne.

As far as rescuiing myself in 4♠....

I have played a SOS xx after a one level overcall. But I would think at the 4 level a xx would be to play. OTOH, a 4♠ overcall can be made with so many different hands that theoretically a xx could be sensibly played as SOS.

Should pard pull with the 1147? I guess, bit it feels silly with a JT-high suit. I wouldn't look for a 4-4 club either, although it could be the best port in the storm.

[Cascade]

Redouble for rescue at the 4-level is a scarey thought.

[FrancesHinden]

I would double on the strong hand when 4H comes round to me. Partner will pass the double with a balanced pile of rubbish, and bid with shape which is fine by me.

On the sample hand it would start

4H P P x
P 5D P ?

I'd like to say I'd pass 5D, but I know the hand. I gave the hand to Jeffrey who raised 5D to 6 saying that partner might well have a heart void.

[pigpenz]

i see nothing wrong with four spades your not gonna win every battle

[FrancesHinden]

This is a good hand for a simulation.
4S just feels wrong to me: far too committal. But I cannot prove it - just as the 4S bidders cannot prove that 4S is right.

I'd like to deal a large number of hands under the constraints that

- LHO has a 4H opening (or something vaguely resembling one)
- Partner won't usually pull 4S unless he has a very unusual hand (and this hand doesn't qualify)
- Opposite a double, partner will pass on a balanced or balanced-ish hand, but will bid with a 6-card minor, a 5-card spade suit, or 5-5 in the minors.
- RHO won't double 4S unless he's also happy to defend 5-minor

I believe double will be the long-term winner, particularly at IMPs when I may take a few +300 or +500s instead of +620s but will also have +300 or +500 against -100. But I'm prepared to be proved wrong.

[bid_em_up]

FrancesHinden, on Apr 23 2006, 01:09 PM, said:

This is a good hand for a simulation.
4S just feels wrong to me: far too committal.  But I cannot prove it - just as the 4S bidders cannot prove that 4S is right.

I believe double will be the long-term winner, particularly at IMPs when I may take a few +300 or +500s instead of +620s but will also have +300 or +500 against -100.  But I'm prepared to be proved wrong.

I dont think you would be, as you will gain whenever partner bids 4S, 4N for minors, 5C or 5D (and makes) or passes for plus, as opposed to the hands where 4S is the only makeable contract and the 4S bid works.

As always, jmoo.