[kgr]

Scoring: MP

---

You opened this hand 2C (weak 6-card D or something strong). After relay of 2D of your partner you plan to bid 3D showing exactly 9-tricks in a diamond contract. But the bidding goes:
2C-(2H)-P-(3H)
??
- Do you bid 4D now to show your hand (your partner is not an expert, it is possible that he still thinks you have 6 card D and weak, but you hope he don't - and if he does it will be a good memory tool for the future )
- Do you bid 3NT because it is MP's (your partner will expect a more balanced hand with more points...or is it better to DBL with the balanced hands)?
- Or do you prefer to pass or DBL?

[Codo]

I would bid the game I want to play: 3 NT

If pd takes me to 4 Spade on xxxxx,xx,xx,xxxx, he will learn something for the next time.

[Free]

3NT, don't care about my ♣s at the moment

[FrancesHinden]

I wouldn't have opened 2C.
I now bid 3NT. If this was a systemic 2C opening, partner should know 3NT may be this type of hand.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

I would have opend 1D, a 2C opening with a minor should
be at least a king stronger.

3NT is probably best, ... altough I am not sure I would have
bid it, ... I would not have been there anyway.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[whereagles]

FrancesHinden, on Apr 19 2006, 09:04 AM, said:

If this was a systemic 2C opening, partner should know 3NT may be this type of hand.

Sorry, but this is a completely incorrect way to look at the problem. You cannot possibly demand that a weak hand guesses what a strong hand has when it made only 2 bids, 1 of which under pressure.

[FrancesHinden]

whereagles, on Apr 19 2006, 12:13 PM, said:

FrancesHinden, on Apr 19 2006, 09:04 AM, said:

If this was a systemic 2C opening, partner should know 3NT may be this type of hand.

Sorry, but this is a completely incorrect way to look at the problem. You cannot possibly demand that a weak hand guesses what a strong hand has when it made only 2 bids, 1 of which under pressure.

I was addressing the earlier point made that "your partner will expect a more balanced hand with more points" for a 3NT bid now.

If this hand is systemically a 2C opening for this pair, then partner should be aware that a 3NT bid now could be this type of hand, not necessarily a balanced lots-count. The alternative is that I don't bid 3NT on a hand with 9 top tricks and litle likelihood of making anything higher.



By the way, it wouldn't surprise me in the least to find out that it's actually not our hand: that they can make 4H or so, and we can make 3NT but nothing more. In fact, if they bid 4H and partner doesn't double, I might well bid 4NT.

[whereagles]

Frances:

> I was addressing the earlier point made that
> "your partner will expect a more balanced hand with more points" for a 3NT bid now.

Ah, ok. Sorry.


> If this hand is systemically a 2C opening for this pair, then partner should be aware that a 3NT
> bid now could be this type of hand, not necessarily a balanced lots-count. The alternative is
> that I don't bid 3NT on a hand with 9 top tricks and litle likelihood of making anything higher.

Ultimately, this is all a bit academic Pard is obviously weak and will thus keep passing regardless of you having a strong bal or strong 1-suited hand

[kgr]

Quote

Pard is obviously weak and will thus keep passing regardless of you having a strong bal or strong 1-suited hand

It's not sure yet that partner is really weak. Most of the time your 2C bid is weak with 6 card D. This is still a possible hand for your partner: xxx=xxx=xx=AKQxx

[han]

Agree with Frances.

[kgr]

The MP bid probably is 3NT here.
But 4D has the advantage that you show your hand and you can leave the last call to your partner after opps bid 4H?

[joshs]

I can't imagine not rebidding 3N on this hand type, especially under pressure.

[jdonn]

There is no conceivable bid but 3NT. At any form of scoring. It may not work, but it is clear to do.

[kgr]

...another question for those who would not open 2C with this hand:
If your bidding system allows to show specifically 8, 9, 10 or 11 tricks in D would you still not open 2C?
This is our system (all show some HCP strength, about 16+)
2C-2D-2S-2NT-3D: 8 tricks in D
2C-2D-3D: 9 tricks in D
2C-2D-2S-2NT-4D: 10 tricks in D
2C-2D-4D: 11 tricks in D

[whereagles]

kgr, on Apr 19 2006, 04:00 PM, said:

...another question for those who would not open 2C with this hand:
If your bidding system allows to show specifically 8, 9, 10 or 11 tricks in D would you still not open 2C?
This is our system (all show some HCP strength, about 16+)
2C-2D-2S-2NT-3D: 8 tricks in D
2C-2D-3D: 9 tricks in D
2C-2D-2S-2NT-4D: 10 tricks in D
2C-2D-4D: 11 tricks in D

Hey, don't worry... your opening was fine.

It's just that people here don't agree that one should open a strong two with 2♣. (The point that they don't have any good rebid after 1x-any-?? seems to be of lesser importance.)

[FrancesHinden]

If you've designed your system so that you open 2C on this hand, then I guess that you have to open 2C or partner cannot play you for this hand (and I assume you also have different meanings for the uncontested auctions 1D - 1M - 3NT and 1D - 1M - 3D).

Including a weak option in the 2C opening helps to prevent much of the pre-emption that 2C is often subject to, but as you can see you still have the problem when you have a hand that is strong in playing strength, but not so strong in high cards: on this particular hand there is a 100% vote for bidding 3NT, because you have 9 tricks, but if you have your 10 trick hand (add the KQ of clubs?) you don't want to do more than bid 3NT over 3H because it still might be the last making game.

[mikeh]

whereagles, on Apr 19 2006, 11:10 AM, said:

Hey, don't worry... your opening was fine.

It's just that people here don't agree that one should open a strong two with 2♣. (The point that they don't have any good rebid after 1x-any-?? seems to be of lesser importance.)

The point that many of those who would not open 2♣ with this hand are more experienced than you, and may well know more about the game than you do, might have somethiing to do with their opinion as well

As for not knowing what to do: after 1♦ (P) 1x (P) to me, I know what to do: I bid 3N, which DOES NOT show a 2N opener or a 2♣ opener but shows a very good, long suit with a good hand... admittedly, after 1♦ (P) 1major (P), I'd prefer something in ♣ but sometimes xxx is enough (if partner holds xxx, it rates to be enough and even xx will work sometimes).


Whether this hand is a 2♣ opening in the posted system is a different issue: but your comment seemed aimed at more 'standard' approaches to the requirements of a 'strong two'.

[inquiry]

kgr, on Apr 19 2006, 11:00 AM, said:

...another question for those who would not open 2C with this hand:
If your bidding system allows to show specifically 8, 9, 10 or 11 tricks in D would you still not open 2C?
This is our system (all show some HCP strength, about 16+)
2C-2D-2S-2NT-3D: 8 tricks in D
2C-2D-3D: 9 tricks in D
2C-2D-2S-2NT-4D: 10 tricks in D
2C-2D-4D: 11 tricks in D

Since you asked for those of us who do not open this 2♣... I open it 2♦, which is played as weak two in a major, very strong balanced (goodish 22 to 24), or 9 to 9.5 tricks in a minor with a suit able to play in slam opposite a small singleton. I open this 2♦.

If the bidding goes...

2D-(2S)-P-(3S)
3N

has to show the 9 trick minor hand because dbl shows the 24 balanced.

This also means my 2♣ then new minor is 100% forcing, so for me,
2C-2S-P-3S
4D <<----- partner is not allowed to pass, and the hand would be STRONGER than this one, and in fact, stronger than a jump to 5♦.

[whereagles]

Quote

The point that many of those who would not open 2♣ with this hand are more experienced than you, and may well know more about the game than you do, might have somethiing to do with their opinion as well

Well, I just have ideas of my own and stand by them.

Quote

As for not knowing what to do: after 1♦ (P) 1x (P) to me, I know what to do: I bid 3N, which DOES NOT show a 2N opener or a 2♣ opener but shows a very good, long suit with a good hand...

That is one possible way out but I don't like it because I prefer that rebid to show a solid minor with 1 trick on the side, e.g. something like

Kxx
x
AKQxxxx
xx

If, after 1♦-1♥ you rebid 2/3♦, you run the risk of having pard pass on a 5-6 hcp hand (say AQ♥) and miss a game. Not to mention it's much easier for pard to evaluate the combined strength if the 3NT rebid is made on 8 playing tricks rather than 9 or 10.

I know this is a matter of style, but I prefer this way of bidding and I don't think you can easily convince me otherwise.

This post has been edited by whereagles: 2006-April-20, 10:10

[zasanya]

Didnt somebody (in another thread which discussed 2♣ opening) comment that 2♣ opening bid sucks?
No wonder things are getting hot.