[microcap]

In news that will shock you all, Rex and I had another misunderstanding/disagreement today I choose to first post the general question though, before showing the actual hands.

And the question is, when would you NOT make a support double with 3 card support of partner's major? Today's mishap went : Rex--1♣. RHOpass, Jay -1♥, LHO bids 1♠. What, if any, are some hands with exactly 3 cards in ♥ where opener (Rex in this case) would not bid a support double?

Thanks in advance as always.

[mike777]

microcap, on Apr 18 2006, 12:35 PM, said:

In news that will shock you all, Rex and I had another misunderstanding/disagreement today        I choose to first post the general question though, before showing the actual hands.

And the question is, when would you NOT make a support double with 3 card support of partner's major?   Today's mishap went :  Rex--1♣. RHOpass, Jay -1♥, LHO bids 1♠.   What, if any, are some hands with exactly 3 cards in ♥ where opener (Rex in this case) would not bid a support double?

Thanks in advance as always.  

Almost always make one:

NV give me as little as:
xxxx....Kxx..xx....AKxx I open 1Club, yes in first seat, and still make a support X.

Why, because I want partner to bid up to the lawful level.

There may be some very rare hands you want to pass or bid nt or another suit, but I think these are too rare to worry about.

[FrancesHinden]

i) subject to partnership agreement, minimum or sub-minimum balanced opener (I play that you have to make a support double on a balanced hand unless you have psyched, but not everyone does).

ii) Also subject to partnership agreement, you may be allowed to bid 1NT on a nice 4333 14-count, say (I would double)

iii) Too much in clubs. With a 3-7 I would pretty much always rebid clubs. With a decent 3-6 I would usually double then bid 3C next round, but with a very minimum hand and good clubs/poor hearts I would pretend I didn't have three hearts and bid 2C (Kxx xxx x AKJ10xx - the hand is about clubs, not hearts).

iv) Not so much on this auction, but having opened 1D on a 0355, say, I would rebid 2C looking at - Jxx KQJxx AJ10xx but make a support double on - KJx AKJxx xxxxx.


iv) any other freaks that aren't prepared to play 1Sx if partner passes.

[jdonn]

There are 3 or 4 situations in which I would not make a support double

- When I do not want to commit our hand to offense in what may be a 4-3 fit. For example on your auction, Qxx Jxx KJx AQxx I would pass.
- When my hand looks too much like notrump. KJx xxx AQx KJTx on your auction I would bid 1NT.
- When another bid is much more descriptive, especially as part of a planned auction. For example, with Qxx x Qxx AKQxxx, after 1♣ p 1♠ x, I would bid 2♣, expecting the auction to likely continue 2♥ p p and I can bid 2♠, describing my hand pretty well and very economically. If I instead support doubled and it went 2♥ p p back to me, it would not be clear whether I want to bid 3♣ or not, so that auction is a little inconvenient. But now suppose I had x Qxx Qxx AKQxxx and it correspondingly went 1♣ p 1♥ 1♠, I would support double since it is very likely to go 2♠ p p back to me, and if I had rebid 2♣ then showing heart support at this point would be very inconvient.

[Free]

When partner can bid 2M to play in a 4-3 fit at worst I always Double. So here, if LHO passes partner can bid 2♥, no problem... Basicly it's up to 2♥: 1♣-p-1♥-2♠, here I don't support double, because partner may get in trouble. But 1♣-p-1♠-2♥ I double for sure.

[luis]

I play support doubles are optional,
You make one when you WANT to tell pd you have 3 card support, not whenever you have 3 cards in his suit.
Basically this means your hand is more offensive than defensive so you would like to play, that means that if you reach a 4-3 fit you have offensive values to make that not a stupid contract.

Luis

[FrancesHinden]

sceptic, on Apr 18 2006, 07:20 PM, said:

Quote

I play that you have to make a support double on a balanced hand unless you have psyched, but not everyone does

I don't really understand the rules about pshyces much, which is why I am asking the question

1/. if you have an agreement about pshyces does that mean that if p passes is that alertable?

2/. If he/she passes do you not now have UI?

Sorry, perhaps I put that badly.

I was trying to say that in my style, once I have decided that a balanced hand is worth an opening bid I am committed to not pass in a support double position. I can't change my mind, unless I am prepared for partner to bid and defend on the assumption I only have a doubleton (or fewer cards) in his suit.

On the stated auction 1C P 1H 1S, if I pass as opener my partner alerts and explains that the pass denies 3-card heart support.

I don't have any agreements about psyches with my partners; as you correctly say such agreements aren't legal.

[microcap]

So here is the follow up question: You Hold:

Scoring: IMP

---

Partner opens 1♣, RHO passes, you bid 1♥. LHO bids 1♠, Partner rebids 2♣. Rho passes, now you bid 2♠, which is game forcing, shows some help in clubs and is angling toward 3NT. LHO continues with 3♠, and partner passes, clearly with no interest in NT. You bid 4♣, now LHO passes. Partner now bids 4♥. What does he have?

[mike777]

microcap, on Apr 18 2006, 02:35 PM, said:

So here is the follow up question:  You Hold:

<!-- ONEHAND begin --><table border='1'> <tr> <td> <table> <tr> <td> Dealer: </td> <td> North </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Vul: </td> <td> None </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Scoring: </td> <td> IMP </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td> <table> <tr> <th> <span class='spades'> ♠ </span> </th> <td> xx </td> </tr> <tr> <th> <span class='hearts'> ♥ </span> </th> <td> A10xx </td> </tr> <tr> <th> <span class='diamonds'> ♦ </span> </th> <td> KJx </td> </tr> <tr> <th> <span class='clubs'> ♣ </span> </th> <td> AJxx </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td>  </td> </tr> </table><!-- ONEHAND end -->

Partner opens 1♣, RHO passes, you bid 1♥.  LHO bids 1♠, Partner rebids 2♣.  Rho passes, now you bid 2♠, which is game forcing, shows some help in clubs and is angling toward 3NT.   LHO continues with 3♠, and partner passes, clearly with no interest in NT.  You bid 4♣, now LHO passes.   Partner now bids 4♥.   What does he have?

I will assume 4D over 4c is rkc for clubs, I hope .
Since pard has chosen to not bid 4d as RKC I am going to assume he has a void. This method implies few cuebids at the 4 level without a void if one skips over RKC.

If my pard bid 4H I would think this is a slam try, something like:
Void...KQ....Qxxx...KQxxxxx for example.

[luis]

microcap, on Apr 18 2006, 07:35 PM, said:

So here is the follow up question: You Hold:

Scoring: IMP

---

Partner opens 1♣, RHO passes, you bid 1♥. LHO bids 1♠, Partner rebids 2♣. Rho passes, now you bid 2♠, which is game forcing, shows some help in clubs and is angling toward 3NT. LHO continues with 3♠, and partner passes, clearly with no interest in NT. You bid 4♣, now LHO passes. Partner now bids 4♥. What does he have?

If support doubles are optional the only option to X is Pass when you have 3 cards in pd's suit. So the 2♣ bid denies 3 hearts.

Pd has something like this:
Jx, Kx, Axx, KQxxxx

He is offering a choice to play 4♥ in case you have 5 cards in the suit, a good idea once he denied 3 cards.

Luis

[FrancesHinden]

microcap, on Apr 18 2006, 08:35 PM, said:

So here is the follow up question: You Hold:

Scoring: IMP

---

Partner opens 1♣, RHO passes, you bid 1♥. LHO bids 1♠, Partner rebids 2♣. Rho passes, now you bid 2♠, which is game forcing, shows some help in clubs and is angling toward 3NT. LHO continues with 3♠, and partner passes, clearly with no interest in NT. You bid 4♣, now LHO passes. Partner now bids 4♥. What does he have?

Why did your 2♠ bid show a club fit? What were you supposed to bid with, say, a 3532 14-count without a spade stop?

Anyway, my 4♣ bid certainly showed clubs.
Partner's 4♥ is a cue for clubs, probably with the king, denying the ace of diamonds. We are unlimited on this auction - in fact, we've shown a slam try (or we would have done something else over 3S), so partner's going to co-operate if he possibly can.

As I have no spade control and no ace of diamonds, I would now make a discouraging call if I can (I use 4NT and 5C to distinguish between 'encouraging' and 'discouraging') or else just sign off in 5C. It wouldn't surprise me if there was no game making on the hand, but it's too late now!

[joshs]

This is a matter for partnership agreement. I think a hand that MUCH prefers to defend or declare NT should supress the 3 card support. For instance:
KJTx xxx Axx Axx (Pass)
KJTx xxx Axx AQx (1N)



At the other extreme, with one partner I used to play that a spt x shows a hand that would have considered making a 3 card raise had the opponents passed, so we pass or rebid 1N with lots of hands with 3 card support. But its important for you to have an agreement as to the possibility of supressing 3 card support ....

[hatchett]

Quote

This is a matter for partnership agreement. I think a hand that MUCH prefers to defend or declare NT should supress the 3 card support.

I strongly agree with this, in both your example hands this is effectively treating the trump support as a doubleton which seems obvious to me.

A 1NT rebid in this position for me shows a maximum weak NT.

[mikeh]

I agree (more or less, with only minor quibbles) with jdonn (no, it was not a term of our settlement of our recend dispute that we agree with each other ) as to when I would not make a support double. I also agree with Frances as to the idea that 2♠ should not promise ♣... you have to have an unambiguous game force here, and the cue bid is the logical tool. Restricting it to promised or suggested ♣ support is too narrow a use.

As for the continuation, I am not surprised that there is a difference of opinion: it is an extremely unusual auction: what is LHO doing? Most would (I assume) have bid more ♠ on the previous round: this slow approach is begging to get doubled (when double is right) while an immediate jump would have decreased the bidding space significantly.

As for me, I now reluctantly disagree with Frances as to the meaning of 4♥: I now take it as 3 card support: a weak hand with good long ♣ checking back for a ♥ suit that could play opposite, say, Jx Qxx Ax KQ109xxx.

I suggest this on the basis of the old saying: game before slam. The partnership is committed to game, but I see no reason why North would bid differently with xx AJ10xx Kx AJxx and I'd rather be in 4♥ than 5♣.

It may be that my difference with Frances arises from our somewhat different approach to the first question: when would we not make a support double.

BTW, I saw mike777's suggestion that 4♦ by opener would be keycard in ♣. I really don't like that idea: I have huge difficulty constructing hands for South, consistent with the pass of 3♠, that could now take charge and place the contract solely on the basis of how many keycards the unlimited partner holds.

And the idea of never being able to cue bid ♦ leaves me bewildered.

But, I confess, I am almost always protesting that too many players use keycard toys far, far too much...

[mike777]

I must admit I would bid 4h and not pass over 3s, to show Partner a decent hand with good 2 card support and some minimum hcp hand if I did not have a spade void. Once partner passes over 3s I do not think they have have some sort of balanced minimum hand with 2 excellent hearts.

"suit that could play opposite, say, Jx Qxx Ax KQ109xxx."
I could not have this hand and not bid a support x and with jx of S and Kx of H I would have bid 4H as a choice of game hand and not passed over 3S by my RHO.

With all that said it does seem impossible that the opp have 11 spades on this auction.

[jdonn]

mikeh, on Apr 18 2006, 06:51 PM, said:

I agree (more or less, with only minor quibbles) with jdonn (no, it was not a term of our settlement of our recend dispute that we agree with each other ) as to when I would not make a support double. I also agree with Frances as to the idea that 2♠ should not promise ♣... you have to have an unambiguous game force here, and the cue bid is the logical tool. Restricting it to promised or suggested ♣ support is too narrow a use.

As for the continuation, I am not surprised that there is a difference of opinion: it is an extremely unusual auction: what is LHO doing? Most would (I assume) have bid more ♠ on the previous round: this slow approach is begging to get doubled (when double is right) while an immediate jump would have decreased the bidding space significantly.

As for me, I now reluctantly disagree with Frances as to the meaning of 4♥: I now take it as 3 card support: a weak hand with good long ♣ checking back for a ♥ suit that could play opposite, say, Jx Qxx Ax KQ109xxx.

I suggest this on the basis of the old saying: game before slam. The partnership is committed to game, but I see no reason why North would bid differently with xx AJ10xx Kx AJxx and I'd rather be in 4♥ than 5♣.

It may be that my difference with Frances arises from our somewhat different approach to the first question: when would we not make a support double.

BTW, I saw mike777's suggestion that 4♦ by opener would be keycard in ♣. I really don't like that idea: I have huge difficulty constructing hands for South, consistent with the pass of 3♠, that could now take charge and place the contract solely on the basis of how many keycards the unlimited partner holds.

And the idea of never being able to cue bid ♦ leaves me bewildered.

But, I confess, I am almost always protesting that too many players use keycard toys far, far too much...

minor quibbles? this means war!

[microcap]

ok....it.turns.out.that.2♠.does.not.necessarily.promise.♣help....according.to.Rex....2♠.is.just.game.force.....still.looking.to.rightside.3NT.
myspacebarisbroken!!!