[han]

I like this comment of Jdonn:

By playing 2♦ as some sort of negative and 2♥ as value showing, opener can ultimately rebid 2NT on 100% of his balanced hands (by going through the 2♥ Kokish relay if need be). By playing 2♦ as game forcing and 2♥ as a bust, opener will have to rebid 3NT on his game forcing balanced hands, taking up all your room to look for major suit fits.

However, playing 2♥ as value-showing has its disadvantages too. I can imagine the following:

1) A bust is less likely than values, so playing Josh's structure you lose the extra step more often. (no, I have not done a simulation but I am pretty sure that this is true. If anybody could run a simulation or bridgebrowser search then that would be great!)

2) Reaching the best contract opposite a bust is often straightforward, while reaching the best contract opposite values can be very complicated. I imagine that near-slam hands really suffer from the missing step.

3) When playing 2♥ as a bust you can occasionally pass 2♥ when it is clearly right. And sometimes you can pass 2♥ when it is likely right (5 good hearts, not enough for game, no second 5-card suit).

I'm sure that there are other arguments in favor of Josh's structure too, it is a complex issue.

[joshs]

Assign the blame:
AKQxx x KQx AKJx
x Qxxxx Axx Qxxx

2C-2D(waiting)-2S-3H-3N-4N-P
An unlucky Down 1 on a heart lead with 6C making

At the other table it went:
2C-2H(Scattered Positive)-2S-3H-4C-4D(Good hand for clubs, not nececarily a control)-4N(rkc)-5D(1)-6C

[han]

Joshs, now change the majors and see who has an easier time.

Although the advantage on this hand is obvious, I don't find it convincing enough to say the structure is better.

[awm]

Here's an idea for a structure over 2♣:

2♥ = 5+♠, game forcing, not necessarily particularly strong spades. Now opener can bid 2♠ as a relay with a balanced hand or a spade fit and responder can continue to show pattern. I suggest responder's 2NT rebid shows 6+♠ and 3♠ shows a 5332 hand, with other calls basically natural (right-siding issues). Opener's other bids basically natural, although 2NT is also available to have some meaning (hearts and a minor perhaps?)

2♠ = 6+minor, game forcing. This is nice because this hand is hard to show over a 2NT rebid and often produces a minor suit slam. 2NT is now the relay and responder bids 3♣ (clubs) or 3♦ (diamonds) or 3M (4cM and diamonds). Opener's other bids basically natural with direct 3M bids showing six card suits and delayed (post-relay) major bids showing five.

2N = 6+♥ game forcing.

3♣ = 5-5 or better minors game forcing.

2♦ = waiting, either a lousy hand or any GF that doesn't make one of the above bids

After 2♣-2♦, we have:

3-minor is natural, 3♠ will act as the "second negative" with other bids showing values.
2♠ is natural, 3♣ will act as the "second negative" with other bids showing values.
2♥ is either natural or a really big NT hand. Usually responder relays with 2♠, with opener's rebids being:

2NT = GF balanced hand (systems on)
3♣ = either hearts and clubs, or a game-forcing heart one-suiter
3♦ = natural, hearts and diamonds, one round force
3♥ = natural NF
3♠ = natural GF with hearts also

Over 2♣-2♦-2♥-2♠-3♣, responder has 3♦ as a game-force ask, and opener rebids 3♥ to show hearts and anything else to show round suits. If responder bids 3♠, it announces a double-negative hand with no fit for either of opener's potential suits.

There are a bunch of additional sequences here, for example failure to bid 2♠ over the 2♥ kokish bid (I suggest that this shows a bad hand with long spades, to avoid wrong-siding a spade contract).

[joshs]

Hannie, on Apr 12 2006, 03:23 PM, said:

I like this comment of Jdonn:

By playing 2♦ as some sort of negative and 2♥ as value showing, opener can ultimately rebid 2NT on 100% of his balanced hands (by going through the 2♥ Kokish relay if need be). By playing 2♦ as game forcing and 2♥ as a bust, opener will have to rebid 3NT on his game forcing balanced hands, taking up all your room to look for major suit fits.

However, playing 2♥ as value-showing has its disadvantages too. I can imagine the following:

1) A bust is less likely than values, so playing Josh's structure you lose the extra step more often. (no, I have not done a simulation but I am pretty sure that this is true. If anybody could run a simulation or bridgebrowser search then that would be great!)

2) Reaching the best contract opposite a bust is often straightforward, while reaching the best contract opposite values can be very complicated. I imagine that near-slam hands really suffer from the missing step.

3) When playing 2♥ as a bust you can occasionally pass 2♥ when it is clearly right. And sometimes you can pass 2♥ when it is likely right (5 good hearts, not enough for game, no second 5-card suit).

I'm sure that there are other arguments in favor of Josh's structure too, it is a complex issue.

I am waiting to see:
AKQx KT98xx Axx A
Open 2C (is it even good enough?), and Pass the 2H double negative, and find:
xxx Qxxxx x xxxx
opposite
+230

I don't think the purpose of a double negative is to say "we might not have a game". Its to say "I don't have high card values that will be useful for slam".

Its pretty hard to stay out of game after opening 2C except for the 2N rebid and occasional auctions where opener bids and rebid his suit opposite a xx neg.

[awm]

In Josh's example, I don't see why on the second auction, opener's knowledge that partner had some scattered cards convinced him to bid a four-card club suit at the four-level on a potential misfit... whereas on the first hand, when responder wanted to show his extra values he punted 4NT instead of similarly bidding a four-card club suit at the four-level. The two situations really seem kind of similar to me.

In addition, give responder:

x Qxxxx Axxx Qxx

After 2♣-2♦-2♠-3♥-4♣ aren't you sort of stuck? I guess you will bid 4NT and hope the same heart lead doesn't sink you?

My point is just that it feels like someone took a judgement call on each auction that could've been a disaster and could've worked out. On the first auction the choice to bid on over 3NT but not show the 4cm was a disaster; on the second auction the decision to bypass 3NT to show the 4cm worked out... but it didn't have to.

[joshs]

Hannie, on Apr 12 2006, 03:38 PM, said:

Joshs, now change the majors and see who has an easier time.

Although the advantage on this hand is obvious, I don't find it convincing enough to say the structure is better.

Ok lets switch the majors:
x AKQxx KQx AKJx
Qxxxx x Axx Qxxx

Standard, with kokish:
2C-2D-2H-2S(forced)-3C-4C-4H(an offer to play, not good enough to bid any higher opposite what may be a 4-5 count)-4N(guessing, not really sure they have a spade control)-5C(3)-6C

2H scattered pos:
2C-2H-3H-3S-4C-4D(likes clubs, says nothing about diamonds)-4N(rkc)-5D(1)-6C

The point is that even here with the majors switched forcing opener to make the most space consuming bid, the auction is more convincing with the scattered positive since the strong hand has more info about the weak hand, and they have an extra level of bidding room since they have promised enough values for 4N.

[inquiry]

joshs, on Apr 12 2006, 03:44 PM, said:

I am waiting to see:
AKQx KT98xx Axx A
Open 2C (is it even good enough?), and Pass the 2H double negative, and find:
xxx Qxxxx x xxxx
opposite
+230

I don't think the purpose of a double negative is to say "we might not have a game". Its to say "I don't have high card values that will be useful for slam".

Its pretty hard to stay out of game after opening 2C except for the 2N rebid and occasional auctions where opener bids and rebid his suit opposite a xx neg.

If you aimed the missle at hannie, you will die while waiting. In fact, he would not respond 2♥ with this hand. Never. He plays a system where 2♣ is either game force, or major one suiter and not game force. Over 2♣ he will bid 2♦, since if his partner has a major he will provide a trick (heart Queen for hearts or diamond ruff for spades). If your 2♣ is not quite as well defined, the response would be 2♠ (no tricks for ♠, but willing to go on if partner has ♥). This is a reason for the dual paradox bids of 2♥ and 2♠.

A great side advantage is that you 1Major opeing bids are now much better defined (on the top end), since you can open 2♣ and bail out should partner have a busto.

[joshs]

awm, on Apr 12 2006, 03:45 PM, said:

In Josh's example, I don't see why on the second auction, opener's knowledge that partner had some scattered cards convinced him to bid a four-card club suit at the four-level on a potential misfit... whereas on the first hand, when responder wanted to show his extra values he punted 4NT instead of similarly bidding a four-card club suit at the four-level. The two situations really seem kind of similar to me.

In addition, give responder:

x Qxxxx Axxx Qxx

After 2♣-2♦-2♠-3♥-4♣ aren't you sort of stuck? I guess you will bid 4NT and hope the same heart lead doesn't sink you?

My point is just that it feels like someone took a judgement call on each auction that could've been a disaster and could've worked out. On the first auction the choice to bid on over 3NT but not show the 4cm was a disaster; on the second auction the decision to bypass 3NT to show the 4cm worked out... but it didn't have to.

Its not just scattered cards. Its values for 4N, generally 8+. Consequently in auction 2:
Yes opener can bid 3N, but its forcing, so he really should introduce his strong 4 card suit. yes 3N might work out better when you belong in diamonds, but its a statistical thing, since partner will not always introduce a weak 4 card suit over 3N.


One of the first things I learned about good slam bidding, is that in a borderline slam auction, its usually a bad idea to introduce a bad 4 card suit (less than 3 points in the suit). Too often you end up in slam with an inadequite trump suit. But yes, someone has to bid it...

As to the last hand: yes you would have the same problem playing bith methods with:
AKQxx x KQx AKJx
x Qxxxx Axxx Qxx
in both methods. It doesn't always gain to have the 4N force set up early, but it rarely hurts. Its hard to have a nice auction to
a. 3N!
b. 4S
c. 5D
After 2C-2H-2S-3H-3N-4D is it clear to bid 5D with AKJx in the unbid suit???
Or similarly after
2C-2D(waiting)-2S-3H-3N-4D-?
4N seems normal here, just not a winner.

Maybe the problem with the auction was bidding hearts naturally in the first place? But opposite a 3 card holding, you often belong in hearts....

[mikeh]

joshs, on Apr 12 2006, 03:34 PM, said:

Assign the blame:
AKQxx x KQx AKJx
x Qxxxx Axx Qxxx

2C-2D(waiting)-2S-3H-3N-4N-P
An unlucky Down 1 on a heart lead with 6C making

At the other table it went:
2C-2H(Scattered Positive)-2S-3H-4C-4D(Good hand for clubs, not nececarily a control)-4N(rkc)-5D(1)-6C

We can all construct hands that advance our particular device.

On the example hand, if S is moving over 3N (not clear on a misfit with borderline values) why not 4♣? Does that have to be 5-5 or more? If so, why?

More importantly, the most common 2♣ opening bids are based on balanced hands or good one-suiters: not carefully chosen 5431 with minimum values and a stiff in partner's suit with him having borderline values, a weak suit and a stiff in your suit. Give me any method you choose and I will come up with a problem hand for you.

The main weakness of the 2♥ positive is in notrump sequences, in which kokish is unavailable:

2♣ 2♥
2N ?

Of course, you get all your favourite toys to play with over 2N, but what does 2N show?

Is it 22-23 or could it be 24 or 27 or ???

Most methods developed for bidding in response to big notrump openers are based on the notion that responder is usually in charge of level... even when he is not actually in charge, he is making invitational bids... but how does responder value his hand as invitational when he has no clue how strong opener is? And how does opener know if partner was asking him if he had a good 23 or whether he needed 26 to accept??

A secondary and infrequent problem is when opener has a primary ♥ suit along with a secondary suit.

x AKQxx AKQx KQx opp Qxxx x Jxxx AJxx

2♥ positive

2♣  2♥
3♥  3N nice preservation of space with 3♥
4♦  ?

your convincing auction, please, and don't tell me that 4N is keycard: it isn't in real bridge

Yes, you'd probably land on your feet on this hand: jump to 6♦... but you'd be guessing and, if I wanted to spend a little more time, I am sure I could come up with a more difficult example.

2♦ positive

2♣  2♦
2♥  2♠ kokish relay
3♦  4♦


and we are off to the races.

[joshs]

inquiry, on Apr 12 2006, 04:02 PM, said:

joshs, on Apr 12 2006, 03:44 PM, said:

I am waiting to see:
AKQx KT98xx Axx A
Open 2C (is it even good enough?), and Pass the 2H double negative, and find:
xxx Qxxxx x xxxx
opposite
+230

I don't think the purpose of a double negative is to say "we might not have a game". Its to say "I don't have high card values that will be useful for slam".

Its pretty hard to stay out of game after opening 2C except for the 2N rebid and occasional auctions where opener  bids and rebid his suit opposite a xx neg.

If you aimed the missle at hannie, you will die while waiting. In fact, he would not respond 2♥ with this hand. Never. He plays a system where 2♣ is either game force, or major one suiter and not game force. Over 2♣ he will bid 2♦, since if his partner has a major he will provide a trick (heart Queen for hearts or diamond ruff for spades). If your 2♣ is not quite as well defined, the response would be 2♠ (no tricks for ♠, but willing to go on if partner has ♥). This is a reason for the dual paradox bids of 2♥ and 2♠.

A great side advantage is that you 1Major opeing bids are now much better defined (on the top end), since you can open 2♣ and bail out should partner have a busto.

I wasn't aiming a missle at anyone in particular. I was was aiming a missle at the hypothetical person that hannie described that:
a. plays 2H as the only xx negative (a common treatment)
b. thinks thats passable.

I have nothing against the parodox responses to 2C. They cater to lighter 2C openers than what most play in the US (at least with a major suit), and thats a reasonable way of handling them. You are slightly behind in showing some good hands, so its a question of do you want to be able to stop in 2M over your 2C openings.

[jdonn]

mikeh, on Apr 12 2006, 04:17 PM, said:

The main weakness of the 2♥ positive is in notrump sequences, in which kokish is unavailable:

2♣  2♥
2N       ?

Of course, you get all your favourite toys to play with over 2N, but what does 2N show?

Is it 22-23 or could it be 24 or 27 or ???

It's 22+ and works easily since you are in a game force. Responder simply assumes the minimum range, and opener bids more with the next range up. For example 2♣ 2♥ 2NT 3♣ 3♥ 4♥ opener could bid keycard, or 2♣ 2♥ 2NT 3NT 4NT. I admit I haven't done a good job defining all these auctions but they are mostly intuitive anyway.

mikeh, on Apr 12 2006, 04:17 PM, said:

A secondary and infrequent problem is when opener has a primary ♥ suit along with a secondary suit.

x AKQxx AKQx KQx   opp Qxxx x Jxxx AJxx

2♥ positive

2♣  2♥
3♥  3N   nice preservation of space with 3♥
4♦  ?

your convincing auction, please, and don't tell me that 4N is keycard: it isn't in real bridge

4N is definitely not keycard. Responder simply cuebids 5♣ over 4♦, what is so difficult about that?

[han]

inquiry, on Apr 12 2006, 04:02 PM, said:

joshs, on Apr 12 2006, 03:44 PM, said:

I am waiting to see:
AKQx KT98xx Axx A
Open 2C (is it even good enough?), and Pass the 2H double negative, and find:
xxx Qxxxx x xxxx
opposite
+230

I don't think the purpose of a double negative is to say "we might not have a game". Its to say "I don't have high card values that will be useful for slam".

Its pretty hard to stay out of game after opening 2C except for the 2N rebid and occasional auctions where opener  bids and rebid his suit opposite a xx neg.

If you aimed the missle at hannie, you will die while waiting. In fact, he would not respond 2♥ with this hand. Never. He plays a system where 2♣ is either game force, or major one suiter and not game force. Over 2♣ he will bid 2♦, since if his partner has a major he will provide a trick (heart Queen for hearts or diamond ruff for spades). If your 2♣ is not quite as well defined, the response would be 2♠ (no tricks for ♠, but willing to go on if partner has ♥). This is a reason for the dual paradox bids of 2♥ and 2♠.

A great side advantage is that you 1Major opeing bids are now much better defined (on the top end), since you can open 2♣ and bail out should partner have a busto.

This is true only when playing with Ben or Arend, not all my partners are as enlightened .

[joshs]

mikeh, on Apr 12 2006, 04:17 PM, said:

joshs, on Apr 12 2006, 03:34 PM, said:

Assign the blame:
AKQxx x KQx AKJx
x Qxxxx Axx Qxxx

2C-2D(waiting)-2S-3H-3N-4N-P
An unlucky Down 1 on a heart lead with 6C making

At the other table it went:
2C-2H(Scattered Positive)-2S-3H-4C-4D(Good hand for clubs, not nececarily a control)-4N(rkc)-5D(1)-6C

We can all construct hands that advance our particular device.

On the example hand, if S is moving over 3N (not clear on a misfit with borderline values) why not 4♣? Does that have to be 5-5 or more? If so, why?

More importantly, the most common 2♣ opening bids are based on balanced hands or good one-suiters: not carefully chosen 5431 with minimum values and a stiff in partner's suit with him having borderline values, a weak suit and a stiff in your suit. Give me any method you choose and I will come up with a problem hand for you.

The main weakness of the 2♥ positive is in notrump sequences, in which kokish is unavailable:

2♣ 2♥
2N ?

Of course, you get all your favourite toys to play with over 2N, but what does 2N show?

Is it 22-23 or could it be 24 or 27 or ???

Most methods developed for bidding in response to big notrump openers are based on the notion that responder is usually in charge of level... even when he is not actually in charge, he is making invitational bids... but how does responder value his hand as invitational when he has no clue how strong opener is? And how does opener know if partner was asking him if he had a good 23 or whether he needed 26 to accept??

A secondary and infrequent problem is when opener has a primary ♥ suit along with a secondary suit.

x AKQxx AKQx KQx opp Qxxx x Jxxx AJxx

2♥ positive

2♣  2♥
3♥  3N nice preservation of space with 3♥
4♦  ?

your convincing auction, please, and don't tell me that 4N is keycard: it isn't in real bridge

Yes, you'd probably land on your feet on this hand: jump to 6♦... but you'd be guessing and, if I wanted to spend a little more time, I am sure I could come up with a more difficult example.

2♦ positive

2♣  2♦
2♥  2♠ kokish relay
3♦  4♦


and we are off to the races.

Why is 2C-2H-2N wide ranging a problem when you are in a force to 4N? In fact you have extra toys available here as 3N is forcing, so its easy to find the 4-4 minor suit fits.

You could, of course, again use a split range and play 3N as 25-26 here, and have stayman and x-fers over that, but that gives up find the 4-4 minor suit fits, so I think direct NT jumps by either player should show:
a. 2-3 extra HCPs
b. regressive shape (usually 4333)

So for instance:
2C-2H-2N-4N(10-11, 4333)
Opener can pass with 22 or bid a 4 card suit to see if it gets raised or bid 5N with exactly 23 and no interest in finding a 4-4 fit. Slam auctions opposite 4333's when you are balanced without a 5 card suit are basically quantatitive and you need more like 34 HCP for slam.


x AKQxx AKQx KQx opp Qxxx x Jxxx AJxx

2C-2H-3H(denies 4 spades on the side)-3N-4D-5C(Qbid)-5H(Qbid)-6D(no spade A)

Thats actually a really easy hand. And you are correct, 4N is not keycard there with no suit agreement, it shows a misfitting minimum.

If responder had KQJx x Jxxx Jxxx he would just bid 5D over 4D.

[luke warm]

i agree with frances on the game forcing aspect of 2C.. it seems to make life much simpler when you know you're in a gf auction... i really like:

2d=4-7
2h=0-3
2s=balanced 8+
2nt=8+, 5p clubs
3c=8+, 5p diamonds
3d=8+, 5p hearts
3h=8+, 5p spades

on josh's example hand it would go 2c : 3d : 3s : 4c : 4d : 4nt : 6c

[Codo]

[quote name='jdonn' date='Apr 13 2006, 12:35 AM'] [/quote]
[QUOTE]Any hand with any 4 or 5 card majors? Why is that difficult to understand? When the auction goes 2[cl] 2[he](bust) 3NT then responder has no room to use any stayman or transfers, without risking 4NT or higher anyway.[/QUOTE]

I don`t know, what you are talking about. In the system Gerben (and I) mentioned, 2 [cl] is just a semiforcing, not a pure GF.
So, in this context- no pure GF-, you use the Kokish relay to show different NT-Ranges.
The good thing is, that you can bid 2 NT with 19-20 and with 25-26 HCP (or which ranges you ever prefer). I must bid 3 NT with the 25 HCP hand. But I can play 2 Heart opposite a very weak hand. You can not. So, your way works fine, if you have 25 HCPs, mine works better with a semiforcing in Heart.
And the problem with the 5 card major does not happen very often. It does just happen, when you have exactly one 5 card major and a zero trick hand opposite some 25 HCPs. I could life with this problem. It never happens in reality.

[QUOTE]Well for one thing I believe you are referring to the system you posted where 2[he] and 2[sp] are both very weak hands, not the standard 2[he] bust system. But in any case that is no help to opener when he is 5-4 or 5-5. Should he
pass 2[he] and play the 5-1 instead of what may be the 5-5 in a minor?[/QUOTE]

?, No, you can only pass 2 Heart, if you have a one suiter in Heart. If you open any two suiter with 2 Club, you have problems in any given system.
Lets say, you have 5 Hearts and 4 Spades. Please tell me, at which level, you can describe this hand pattern to your pd after you started with 2 Club - 2 Diamond.
Same problem with any other two suiter. This does not proof anything. Just that you better open GF two-suiters with one in a suit.

[QUOTE] Tailoring your system to stop in 2 of a major after a 2[cl] opening is such a misrepresentation of priorities as to boggle the mind.[/QUOTE]

Yes I can see that. But again: If 2 Club is a semiforce or better, it is very nice to have a tool, where you can stop as low as possible opposite a useless hand. if you play 2 Club as a pure Game force, this is not needed at all.

[QUOTE]Unluckily, pd has to jump to show a GF..
No he doesn't! Are you having fun making up systems for me?/QUOTE]

Okay, then 2 [cl] 2 [di] 2 [sp] is already a gf in spades? Sure you can play it this way, but then again, you must restrict your 2 Club opening to pure GF hands and if it is a semiforcing, but you have to bid on, you will play 3[sp]. In my way, I will play 2[sp]. This seems to be a reasonable gain.

[QUOTE] You still don't understand. By playing 2[di] as some sort of negative and 2[he] as value showing, opener can ultimately rebid 2NT on 100% of his balanced hands (by going through the 2[he] Kokish relay if need be). By playing 2[di] as game forcing and 2[he] as a bust, opener will have to rebid 3NT on his game forcing balanced hands, taking up all your room to look for major suit fits. This is what you call 'no advantage'?[/QUOTE]

No I don`t -and will never -understand this. Like I mentioned above: You must play 2 Club as a game force, or you must play your semiforcing in a major at the 3. level. These disadvantages are much more frequent then the hands, where you look at 25 HCPs opposite a pure bust.

[mikeh]

joshs, on Apr 12 2006, 04:42 PM, said:

Why is 2C-2H-2N wide ranging a problem when you are in a force to 4N? In fact you have extra toys available here as 3N is forcing, so its easy to find the 4-4 minor suit fits.

Playing 3N as forcing requires far more than flipping the 2♦/2♥ response structure. For many, 2♦ positive merely shows and Ace or a King: responder need have no more than that. So if you make 2♥ the positive waiting bid and then make opener's 2N create a force to 4 major (ok) or 4N, then you have to change the minimum requirement for responder's positive. A method that forces the partnership to 4N on balanced 3 counts opposite balanced 22 counts is unplayable.

This means that 2♥ has to be a good 6 count or better. Now your 2♦ 'bust' can be 0-6 and can include an Ace!

One of the advantages of playing that the immediate negative denies a control is that opener, with exceptionally powerful hands, can immediately stop worrying about missing a slam, because he knows immediately that the partnership lacks the requisite controls. If the negative response can have controls, this information is lost, and the partnership must adjust its bidding to take this into account.

There are other consequences, but any interest I had in considering 2♥ as a positive wait has evaporated if the method prohibits us from playing 3N on 2 balanced hands.

[jdonn]

Codo, on Apr 13 2006, 02:16 AM, said:

And the problem with the 5 card major does not  happen very often.  It does just happen, when you have exactly one 5 card major  and a zero trick hand opposite some 25 HCPs. I could life with this problem. It never happens in reality.

Are you joking? I would bet this problem when you have one (or two) 5 (or 4) card major(s) happens 75% of the time that opener has a game forcing balanced hand. Never happens in reality? Now you are just making ridiculous statements that are impossible to back up. It didn't take me very long to remember where this was http://www.worldbridge.org/bulletin/05_1_S.../pdf/bul_11.pdf (page 5) note how "well" the auction 2♣ 2♥! 3NT worked. Does that count as reality?

Codo, on Apr 13 2006, 02:16 AM, said:

?, No, you can only pass 2 Heart, if you have a one suiter in Heart. If you open any two suiter with 2 Club, you have problems in any given system.

2♣ 2♦ 2♥ 2♠ 3♣, 2♣ 2♥ 3♥ 3♠ 4♣. Which of those is more of a problem? Yes I understand the second auction will occur no matter what 2♥ shows, but would you rather be in that situation opposite a bust hand or a hand with values?

I haven't even mentioned that playing 2♥ and 2♠ as you do forces responder to bid a level higher with a positive response with spades. 2♣ 3♥(showing spades) and opener has hearts! Good luck bidding from there.

[jdonn]

mikeh, on Apr 13 2006, 10:17 AM, said:

This means that 2♥ has to be a good 6 count or better. Now your 2♦ 'bust' can be 0-6 and can include an Ace!

One of the advantages of playing that the immediate negative denies a control is that opener, with exceptionally powerful hands, can immediately stop worrying about missing a slam, because he knows immediately that the partnership lacks the requisite controls. If the negative response can have controls, this information is lost, and the partnership must adjust its bidding to take this into account.

That sort of sounds logical at a glance, but I challenge you to find (or even make up!) a hand where opener is very powerful as you say and the auction works better after 2♣ 2♥(bust) than 2♣ 2♦(0-6 or so). I bet you can't.

Besides, any widening you do to the bust responses correspondingly narrows the game forcing response, and that is the one that could use the narrowing since it is unlimited.

[Stephen Tu]

Quote

then you have to change the minimum requirement for responder's positive

Yes. Those of us advocating the 2♥ scattered positive (~good 7 pts, 2+ controls, personally I use 5+ pts where A=3, K=2, Q=1) think that is a good thing.

That way when responder makes positive noise after an initial negative, he is limited to the ~4-bad 7 range, and opener doesn't have to cater to responder being much stronger. It avoids responder bidding 2♦ then bidding on after opener's game signoff, often wresting captaincy when poorly placed to really do so. It allows responder to make slam invitational noise, then make a passable game bid without feeling that he has more than promised, avoiding the 5 level when the hands don't fit well.

After all, a single A doesn't put one in the slam zone opposite a min 2♣ opener, which are by far the most common type. And if one ace is all that opener needs, surely there is room to find out about it after 2♦.

One can play 3nt if both parties are min after some auction like 2♣-2♥-2NT-3nt.