[kenrexford]

I've never seen this before, but it just came up. The definition I usually use for a fit-showing slam move (in this context) is (1) good support (at least two of the top four honors) and (2) my suit is at least three of the top four honors, with (3) no side control.

So, I opened 2D weak (red), with xx-KJx-AQJxxx-xx. Partner bids 2H. 4D!

Partner held x-AQxxxxx-x-AKQx.

He might be afraid of KQJxxx, but that is hardly useful for a heart slam.

So, 6H is reached, right?

Naw!!! Partner got lost. After I explained my reasoning, partner thought I suppressed my heart support. After I re-explained my reasoning, including the obvious strange jump, partner suggested that I bid a new suit. After I asked which worthless doubleton to bid, partner corrected himself and suggested that I make a jump raise. When I noted that 4D was a jump raise, he said I was weird.

This is true (I am weird), but the auction was not.

Neat hand, though.

[helene_t]

Your bidding was fine. It's not beginner's stuff but an adv+ partner should understand it.

[whereagles]

4♦ is the master bid, but only if discussed. Most people hate it when pard makes undiscussed bids, so you shouldn't try pard's nerves unless you have the sequence settled down

[kenrexford]

Yes, but my partner's online profile said "expert." Clearly, that is a reliable indication of his ability to understand this auction, right???

[helene_t]

Yes, forget what I said, I'm just an intermediate so it's not my business to argue with an expert

[david_c]

kenrexford, on Apr 6 2006, 02:24 PM, said:

Yes, but my partner's online profile said "expert."  Clearly, that is a reliable indication of his ability to understand this auction, right???

OK, seriously, even if partner is a real expert he might go wrong: he needs to be sure that you are an expert as well. Otherwise he may play you for being a beginner with a long string of diamonds.

You want to be a good partner, not an Unlucky Expert, so bid 4♥ instead.

[cherdano]

Ok, your bidding was weird

So what is the difference between 4D and 4H? Shouldn't 4D show a hand that would rather play in D than in H? I.e. with ♦KQJxxx? And your actual hand should just bid 4H?

[inquiry]

cherdano, on Apr 6 2006, 08:57 AM, said:

Ok, your bidding was weird

So what is the difference between 4D and 4H? Shouldn't 4D show a hand that would rather play in D than in H? I.e. with ♦KQJxxx? And your actual hand should just bid 4H?

With out heart fit and with good ♦ would you REALLY bid beyond 3NT (aka 4♦) when you don't know your partners hand? Sorry, 4♦ here has to include ♥ support.

[cherdano]

inquiry, on Apr 6 2006, 04:14 PM, said:

cherdano, on Apr 6 2006, 08:57 AM, said:

Ok, your bidding was weird

So what is the difference between 4D and 4H? Shouldn't 4D show a hand that would rather play in D than in H? I.e. with ♦KQJxxx? And your actual hand should just bid 4H?

With out heart fit and with good ♦ would you REALLY bid beyond 3NT (aka 4♦) when you don't know your partners hand? Sorry, 4♦ here has to include ♥ support.

Of course. I mean he should bid 4D with xx KJx KQJxxx xx and 4H with xx KJx AQxxxx xx.

[kenrexford]

This brings up an interesting issue. Using what I believe to be ideal methods, you could use what I call "Majorgust" after 2D-P-2M. This treatment:

New Suit = Maximum, feature
Jump New = Splinter, support
Raise = Fit, but minimum
2NT = Fit, maximum
3D = minimum, no fit

This solves a world of hurt.

But, barring this agreement, 4H simply shows a fit with a maximum. Nothing more, except perhaps no splinter available.

With normal agreements, the fit-showing jump is of more utility, it seems to me, than the suggested alternative-strain idea. It is not clearlty or obviously off base, but it seems less useful and less likely as the default.

Using Majorgust, however, it does seem that 4H could show the fit-showing jump hand and 4D the alternative-strain hand, with 2NT handling all other maximums without a splinter or fit-show.

I'd like to think that this might have been the problem. Partner, however, commented that I had never shown heart support. This seems rather odd, at best.

[mikeh]

Looks like a 1♦ opening hand to me, not a weak 2... but styles vary: I wouldn't open 2♦ with an unknown expert... whether a real expert or a typical bbo pseudo-expert.

Having done so, again, I wouldn't make a bid that could be potentially misunderstood. 4♦ is the type of bid one makes when one wants and expects to be involved in a post-mortem and intends to argue that it is partner's fault.

You decided that the hand was a weak two: don't risk confusion: make the partnership bid of 4♥: apologize for having opened a weak 2 and ask, afterwards, what would 4♦ have meant?

BTW, if you want a good method over 2♦ - 2M, how about using 3♣ as a minimum weak two with support (silent about ♣) and a single raise as a good hand with support: it maximizes bidding space at the cost of losing a feature -showing, non-support, 3♣: which can be shown by 2N.


I have a good method for allowing opener to hold a 4 card major.... if anyone is interested It significantly increases the frequency of the weak 2, especially if, at favourable, you don't mind 5♦ and a 4 card major

[Blofeld]

mikeh, on Apr 6 2006, 12:48 PM, said:

I have a good method for allowing opener to hold a 4 card major.... if anyone is interested It significantly increases the frequency of the weak 2, especially if, at favourable, you don't mind 5♦ and a 4 card major

I'm interested.

[han]

Me too!

Also agree with all that mikeh wrote.

[mcphee]

I don't get it, you open 2D when perhaps 1D was a better indication of what you have. You make a jump to 4D undiscussed and expect the player to "follow" what you are doing. Perhaps they should understand, but the truth is why find a bid that may confuse the partner in the first place? Would a raise of his suit confused him, 3 or 4?

The simple easy hard fast rule to follow when playing with people is "never" make a bid that is undiscussed. Who cares if they are expert World Class or any level. What invaibly takes place is teh player says,"hmmmm that bid should mean this (in my mind) but I am not sure". Or they think , gee last time this player bid something that would never have occurred to me, now what the hell are they doing?

Bottom line it is like using Smolen when undiscussed, how can you possibly be sure the player will get it ? You can't so you just do not do it.