Help
AJ975
K74
Q6
AK3
(3H) - pass - (4H) - ???
Give your ratings (0-10) for...
a) 4S
Dblc) Pass
...and explain.
Ty, Poky,
Bid after preempt...
#1
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Posted 2003-October-30, 07:59
MP, only we VUL
AJ975
K74
Q6
AK3
(3H) - pass - (4H) - ???
Give your ratings (0-10) for...
a) 4S
Dbl
c) Pass
...and explain.
Ty, Poky,
AJ975
K74
Q6
AK3
(3H) - pass - (4H) - ???
Give your ratings (0-10) for...
a) 4S
Dblc) Pass
...and explain.
Ty, Poky,
#2
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Posted 2003-October-30, 09:42
Dbl. no other choice. If pd has spade, he will bid it.
#3
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Posted 2003-October-30, 09:49
"MP, only we VUL
AJ975
K74
Q6
AK3
(3H) - pass - (4H) -
Give your ratings (0-10) for...
a) 4S
Dbl
c) Pass
...and explain."
a) 7
3
c) 3
This is tough. There is no good bid.
RHO is either weak, and they have 10+ trumps, or strong, and they have 8+. More likely weak, given your hand.
In that case, pd is likely to have at least 2, probably 3 spades. 4S is makeable. Top marks for a 4S bid, in spite of the quality of the spade suit. Better spades, and 4S would be automatic, IMO.
My rating of double is based on a dislike of playing at the 5 level, AND 2 diamonds. You do get to show a strong hand, but pd bids 5D, then what? RHO may be strong, and in any case slam is very iffy, and this is MPs. If you want to bid, just bid 4S and take the most likely game at the lowest level.
Pass is somewhat tempting, given the problems with double, and the not so great spades, but the hand is too strong for this to feel right.
Peter
AJ975
K74
Q6
AK3
(3H) - pass - (4H) -
Give your ratings (0-10) for...
a) 4S
Dblc) Pass
...and explain."
a) 7
3c) 3
This is tough. There is no good bid.
RHO is either weak, and they have 10+ trumps, or strong, and they have 8+. More likely weak, given your hand.
In that case, pd is likely to have at least 2, probably 3 spades. 4S is makeable. Top marks for a 4S bid, in spite of the quality of the spade suit. Better spades, and 4S would be automatic, IMO.
My rating of double is based on a dislike of playing at the 5 level, AND 2 diamonds. You do get to show a strong hand, but pd bids 5D, then what? RHO may be strong, and in any case slam is very iffy, and this is MPs. If you want to bid, just bid 4S and take the most likely game at the lowest level.
Pass is somewhat tempting, given the problems with double, and the not so great spades, but the hand is too strong for this to feel right.
Peter
#4
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Posted 2003-October-30, 10:25
Good luck getting a definative answer (i will actually disagree with fly and Peter, I don't like the takeout DBL with this hand). This hand illustrates why they preempt: to give you problems.
Your RHO might have anything from a reasonable game try (S-KQT9 H-QT9x D-AK C-QJT) in which case 4S will get cracked, and 4Hx figures to make, to a very weak hand like (S-xxx H-Axx D-Jxx C-xxxx), where you might even make 6S. This means, quite literally, that any of these three bids could be right. The good news is you are only playing for matchpoints, so the most your decision can cost is one full board. :-)
As a side note, with some peoples preempts today you can't even be certain that your partner is short in hearts (although opener likley has 6/7 lately I have seen 3H at this vul on five card suits, and raiser if weak, might have 2. So while I think partner has a heart singleton or void, as many as 3 is not totally out of the question... Especially if the 3H bidder is a certain bulgarian).
Now to what to bid? The odds are that your partner has a little something as RHO will raise with very little on this kind of auction. Assume "normal bridge" if you double (takeout), your partner will be too short to leave the double in. So dbl or bid 4S, and your side is declearing the hand. If your doulbe is "cooperative" after this kind of raise, then that would be great bid for this hand. But for me dbl is takeout.
Since with 3H's if I double, we are declearing the hand anyway, we should remove double as an option. That leaves me with a timid pass and an aggressive 4S.
Advantage of 4S. A) You introduce your suit, partner is likely to have a few spades (since short in hearts), and if not will have a two long minors and might give you option of five of your better minor, c) takes the pressure off your partner to balance, d) might get you to your only makable game, e) Keeps your partner from bidding 4NT for pick a minor when he is 3-0-5-5.
Advantage of Pass. A) avoids 4Sx down two or more when it is wrong, avoids 4S down one or two when you are beating 4H, C) allows your partner, who is short in hearts to reopen with dbl which brings both 4S and 4Hx back into the picture.
What would i do? It is close between 4S and pass. But in the final analysis, to make game, your partner will need more than honor or two in spades, and a diamond card. With something like S-Qxx H-x D-Axxx C-xxxxx you will lose at least one trick in each suit, and if you ruff two hearts in dummy, you may lose 2 Spades, so you may have an additional loser.
If you can pass in tempo, that might be the best bid. But I suspect by the time you work through what to do, if you pass (slow pass), your partner would be barred from a light reopening doulbe when he has "the right hand." So I guess I would roll the dice and blantantly bid 4S's, although I respect anyone who backs the decision to passes in tempo, expecting partner to reopen with a takeout double when short in hearts even with only 3 spades (in case you had penalty dbl hand).
Ben
Your RHO might have anything from a reasonable game try (S-KQT9 H-QT9x D-AK C-QJT) in which case 4S will get cracked, and 4Hx figures to make, to a very weak hand like (S-xxx H-Axx D-Jxx C-xxxx), where you might even make 6S. This means, quite literally, that any of these three bids could be right. The good news is you are only playing for matchpoints, so the most your decision can cost is one full board. :-)
As a side note, with some peoples preempts today you can't even be certain that your partner is short in hearts (although opener likley has 6/7 lately I have seen 3H at this vul on five card suits, and raiser if weak, might have 2. So while I think partner has a heart singleton or void, as many as 3 is not totally out of the question... Especially if the 3H bidder is a certain bulgarian).
Now to what to bid? The odds are that your partner has a little something as RHO will raise with very little on this kind of auction. Assume "normal bridge" if you double (takeout), your partner will be too short to leave the double in. So dbl or bid 4S, and your side is declearing the hand. If your doulbe is "cooperative" after this kind of raise, then that would be great bid for this hand. But for me dbl is takeout.
Since with 3H's if I double, we are declearing the hand anyway, we should remove double as an option. That leaves me with a timid pass and an aggressive 4S.
Advantage of 4S. A) You introduce your suit,
partner is likely to have a few spades (since short in hearts), and if not will have a two long minors and might give you option of five of your better minor, c) takes the pressure off your partner to balance, d) might get you to your only makable game, e) Keeps your partner from bidding 4NT for pick a minor when he is 3-0-5-5. Advantage of Pass. A) avoids 4Sx down two or more when it is wrong,
avoids 4S down one or two when you are beating 4H, C) allows your partner, who is short in hearts to reopen with dbl which brings both 4S and 4Hx back into the picture. What would i do? It is close between 4S and pass. But in the final analysis, to make game, your partner will need more than honor or two in spades, and a diamond card. With something like S-Qxx H-x D-Axxx C-xxxxx you will lose at least one trick in each suit, and if you ruff two hearts in dummy, you may lose 2 Spades, so you may have an additional loser.
If you can pass in tempo, that might be the best bid. But I suspect by the time you work through what to do, if you pass (slow pass), your partner would be barred from a light reopening doulbe when he has "the right hand." So I guess I would roll the dice and blantantly bid 4S's, although I respect anyone who backs the decision to passes in tempo, expecting partner to reopen with a takeout double when short in hearts even with only 3 spades (in case you had penalty dbl hand).
Ben
--Ben--
#5
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Posted 2003-October-30, 10:42
Pass.
Should lead to a plus score most often and is therefore the standout call at matchpoints. At IMPs things are probably closer but I would probably still pass as the hand is balanced and the honours suggest defending.
I agree with Ben that 4S is much preferred to double.
Should lead to a plus score most often and is therefore the standout call at matchpoints. At IMPs things are probably closer but I would probably still pass as the hand is balanced and the honours suggest defending.
I agree with Ben that 4S is much preferred to double.
#6
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Posted 2003-October-30, 10:45
There are no bids which deserve a good score actually, because you have to guess a bit.
You want to play 4S if partner has something, and 4H when he hasn't got something usefull in his hand. Take a chance and go for it, it's MPs... 4S: 7
I don't like Dbl at all. You have only S, and what should partner do without S? Bid 5D and you're going down like hell! Dbl: 1
Pass is a possible option imo, but gives away a game score when rho bid with a weak hand. Pass: 5
You want to play 4S if partner has something, and 4H when he hasn't got something usefull in his hand. Take a chance and go for it, it's MPs... 4S: 7
I don't like Dbl at all. You have only S, and what should partner do without S? Bid 5D and you're going down like hell! Dbl: 1
Pass is a possible option imo, but gives away a game score when rho bid with a weak hand. Pass: 5
"It may be rude to leave to go to the bathroom, but it's downright stupid to sit there and piss yourself" - blackshoe
#7
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Posted 2003-October-30, 11:02
We are fixed. It's obvious.
I'd pass NV, being Vul I think I must bid 4s and face the consecuences.
4s. Sorry.
I'd pass NV, being Vul I think I must bid 4s and face the consecuences.
4s. Sorry.
The legend of the black octogon.
#8
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Posted 2003-October-30, 11:07
if the bidding is correct, pard has heart void (maybe stiff), but even so it may be difficult for him to reopen.. the main problem is the relatively weak spade suit.. lawrence has a dictum in this situation... if all you need from pard is 7 hcp, bid or double.. is that all you need? maybe
free says that 5D is 'down like hell'... maybe, maybe not... it might not be
... given west's preempt, pard might have 6 or 7 diamonds, in which case your Q is golden.. one thing's for sure, he won't bid 4S with only 3 (i don't think), so double can possibly lose a spade game
since partner will find it hard to reopen (even with a void in hearts), i might be tempted to double.. i do think 4S is a little unilateral (tho maybe right), after all partner *might* bid 5C
ben's right about this tho, it *is* matchpoints... it's only one board... so i think i'd double.. if pard bids 5D, so be it.. 4NT or 5C would be welcome news, and neither are beyond the realm of possibility.. heck, 4S isn't beyond that realm
so i'd rate double first, 4S second, pass third with any of them having the possibility of being the best bid
free says that 5D is 'down like hell'... maybe, maybe not... it might not be
... given west's preempt, pard might have 6 or 7 diamonds, in which case your Q is golden.. one thing's for sure, he won't bid 4S with only 3 (i don't think), so double can possibly lose a spade gamesince partner will find it hard to reopen (even with a void in hearts), i might be tempted to double.. i do think 4S is a little unilateral (tho maybe right), after all partner *might* bid 5C
ben's right about this tho, it *is* matchpoints... it's only one board... so i think i'd double.. if pard bids 5D, so be it.. 4NT or 5C would be welcome news, and neither are beyond the realm of possibility.. heck, 4S isn't beyond that realm
so i'd rate double first, 4S second, pass third with any of them having the possibility of being the best bid
"Paul Krugman is a stupid person's idea of what a smart person sounds like." Newt Gingrich (paraphrased)
#9
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Posted 2003-October-30, 11:16
Quote
"MP, only we VUL
AJ975
K74
Q6
AK3
(3H) - pass - (4H) -
Give your ratings (0-10) for...
a) 4S
Dbl
c) Pass
...and explain."
a) 7
3
c) 3
This is tough. There is no good bid.
RHO is either weak, and they have 10+ trumps, or strong, and they have 8+. More likely weak, given your hand.
In that case, pd is likely to have at least 2, probably 3 spades. 4S is makeable. Top marks for a 4S bid, in spite of the quality of the spade suit. Better spades, and 4S would be automatic, IMO.
My rating of double is based on a dislike of playing at the 5 level, AND 2 diamonds. You do get to show a strong hand, but pd bids 5D, then what? RHO may be strong, and in any case slam is very iffy, and this is MPs. If you want to bid, just bid 4S and take the most likely game at the lowest level.
Pass is somewhat tempting, given the problems with double, and the not so great spades, but the hand is too strong for this to feel right.
Peter
AJ975
K74
Q6
AK3
(3H) - pass - (4H) -
Give your ratings (0-10) for...
a) 4S
Dblc) Pass
...and explain."
a) 7
3c) 3
This is tough. There is no good bid.
RHO is either weak, and they have 10+ trumps, or strong, and they have 8+. More likely weak, given your hand.
In that case, pd is likely to have at least 2, probably 3 spades. 4S is makeable. Top marks for a 4S bid, in spite of the quality of the spade suit. Better spades, and 4S would be automatic, IMO.
My rating of double is based on a dislike of playing at the 5 level, AND 2 diamonds. You do get to show a strong hand, but pd bids 5D, then what? RHO may be strong, and in any case slam is very iffy, and this is MPs. If you want to bid, just bid 4S and take the most likely game at the lowest level.
Pass is somewhat tempting, given the problems with double, and the not so great spades, but the hand is too strong for this to feel right.
Peter
Dbl here ask pd to bid s, if he has some. If u really want pd to bid minor, u may bid 4n.
#10
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Posted 2003-October-30, 12:02
Flytoox writes:
"Dbl here ask pd to bid s, if he has some. If u really want pd to bid minor, u may bid 4n."
That's fine if that's the way you play it. I play it as straight takeout.
BTW - what do you expect your pd to do with 2 h and 2 s, and 54 in the minors?
Peter
"Dbl here ask pd to bid s, if he has some. If u really want pd to bid minor, u may bid 4n."
That's fine if that's the way you play it. I play it as straight takeout.
BTW - what do you expect your pd to do with 2 h and 2 s, and 54 in the minors?
Peter
#11
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Posted 2003-October-30, 12:53
Dbl here is straightforward takeout, of coz. What pd will do if he has 2 hearts and 2 spades and 5-4 in minor? Who knows? If life is so easy then nobody will both to preempt. Perhaps you will regret your dbl if you knew pd has this kind hand. Pd is very likely to have single heart, at most. If he has 4 spades, he will bid it. if no, 5c or 5d is not that bad.
Bidding 4s has much higher risk I think than dbl. you just committed to play.
Pass can be right, but I will not do it.
Bidding 4s has much higher risk I think than dbl. you just committed to play.
Pass can be right, but I will not do it.
#12
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Posted 2003-October-30, 14:15
The rank of the votes so far.....
1st place,
4S - has 5 votes (luis, ben, peter, Free, Ron)
2nd place (* see footnote)
Pass - has one vote (irg20). (I admire this vote, as
it has the greatest flexibility to get you to
your optimum spot.
3rd place,
DBL - 2 votes, Luke warm and Flytoox.
* Footnote: Several of the none-doublers spoke out against the use of a double here (Peter, Ben, Irg20, and Free), and some expressed the thought that pass is not bad and can be right (Ben, Luis, and Free), so I think pass should be promoted over DBL on the bases of the "Explain" part of the answers.
1st place,
4S - has 5 votes (luis, ben, peter, Free, Ron)
2nd place (* see footnote)
Pass - has one vote (irg20). (I admire this vote, as
it has the greatest flexibility to get you to
your optimum spot.
3rd place,
DBL - 2 votes, Luke warm and Flytoox.
* Footnote: Several of the none-doublers spoke out against the use of a double here (Peter, Ben, Irg20, and Free), and some expressed the thought that pass is not bad and can be right (Ben, Luis, and Free), so I think pass should be promoted over DBL on the bases of the "Explain" part of the answers.
--Ben--
#13
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Posted 2003-October-30, 15:53
We are fixed. It's obvious.
I'd pass NV, being Vul I think I must bid 4s and face the consecuences.
4s. Sorry.
Agree with Luis. May be very wrong, but at least my 3 card holding in H suggests pd may have some spade length.
My major problem with pass is that it puts too much pressure on pd, particularly if I can't pass in tempo.
Ron
I'd pass NV, being Vul I think I must bid 4s and face the consecuences.
4s. Sorry.
Agree with Luis. May be very wrong, but at least my 3 card holding in H suggests pd may have some spade length.
My major problem with pass is that it puts too much pressure on pd, particularly if I can't pass in tempo.
Ron
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
#14
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Posted 2003-November-01, 08:33
Anyway, partner held a good dummy:
8x
Q
Kx
QJ10xxxxx
And 4Sx was -1. -200 was 0%.
5C was making if opps don't lead a spade in time....
Poky
8x
Q
Kx
QJ10xxxxx
And 4Sx was -1. -200 was 0%.
5C was making if opps don't lead a spade in time....
Poky
#15
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Posted 2003-November-02, 10:42
no mark but by order
Pass
4S
double (the only one i give mark and it's a 0 , oh well ok 0.5)
in theory if i have that i'll not be able to pass immediately and i'll bid and say "sorry p" at the end
regards
syl
Pass
4S
double (the only one i give mark and it's a 0 , oh well ok 0.5)
in theory if i have that i'll not be able to pass immediately and i'll bid and say "sorry p" at the end
regards
syl
#16
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Posted 2003-November-02, 17:06
Quote
Anyway, partner held a good dummy:
8x
Q
Kx
QJ10xxxxx
And 4Sx was -1. -200 was 0%.
5C was making if opps don't lead a spade in time....
Poky
8x
Q
Kx
QJ10xxxxx
And 4Sx was -1. -200 was 0%.
5C was making if opps don't lead a spade in time....
Poky
so the only bid which will give u a plus is dbl, it keeps chance for 4hx or 4s or 5minor.
#17
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Posted 2003-November-02, 17:24
Why? I would bid 5C ove 4S with this hand.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
#18
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Posted 2003-November-03, 01:15
In old days, it was thought correct to make takeout doubles at the low levels with shape and at the high levels with high cards.
These days the focus seems to have changed to acting at the low levels with high cards ( eg. a 4333 12 count takeout double of 1C) and at the high level with shape.
Assuming the partnership subscribes to this philosophy, wouldnt dream of bidding 4S with Kxx in hearts for partner is expected to make light takeout dbls with heart shortage.
This theory however seems to have more Aussie followers than American , perhaps due to Paul Marston's advocacy of it.....
These days the focus seems to have changed to acting at the low levels with high cards ( eg. a 4333 12 count takeout double of 1C) and at the high level with shape.
Assuming the partnership subscribes to this philosophy, wouldnt dream of bidding 4S with Kxx in hearts for partner is expected to make light takeout dbls with heart shortage.
This theory however seems to have more Aussie followers than American , perhaps due to Paul Marston's advocacy of it.....
#19
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Posted 2003-November-03, 05:14
Quote
Why? I would bid 5C ove 4S with this hand.
what if pd has 6 or even 7card spade? can you really move pd's 4s? come on.
#20
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Posted 2003-November-03, 06:36
Quote
Anyway, partner held a good dummy:
8x
Q
Kx
QJ10xxxxx
And 4Sx was -1. -200 was 0%.
5C was making if opps don't lead a spade in time....
Poky
8x
Q
Kx
QJ10xxxxx
And 4Sx was -1. -200 was 0%.
5C was making if opps don't lead a spade in time....
Poky
With only one "probable" entry to dummy and an 8 card suit this hand must pull 4s to 5c. Even when 4s makes and 5c is down 1 the correct bid with this hand is 5c. So any bid was right, even pass was fine we were going to play 5c all the time. I wonder why did we get a problem with the other hand.... :-)
"Never put an 8 card suit as dummy".
The legend of the black octogon.