[hatchett]

Quote

Partner is approximently 3154 with 17-18 HCP
Your possible bids are:
a. Pass (I would definitely pick this at mps)

Pass!

You can't be serious you expect partner to have a 3145 17/18 count and you have 3 working honors and you think pass is a viable option? Your hand can't be much better on the auction with nothing wasted in hearts. This hand is a good game.

Kxx
x
AKJxx
AKxx

and it wouldn't be totally shocking if partner had a 2164 such as

Kx x AKJxxx AJxx which is not a huge amount worse than slam on a finessse

It's not as though bidding over 2♠ commits you to game.

[Fluffy]

hatchett, on Mar 27 2006, 11:36 PM, said:

This hand is a good game.

Kxx
x
AKJxx
AKxx

and it wouldn't be totally shocking if partner had a 2164 such as

Kx x AKJxxx AJxx which is not a huge amount worse than slam on a finessse

Actually with 18 (not trash 18) partner will likelly bid 3♣ instead of 2. Partner is 16-17 (very good 15 is maybe possible)

[Kalvan14]

2♠ is a FSF, and in normal situations you'd raise it with 4 cards. However, opener cannot have 4 spades: he is establishing a GF situation, either aimed to play 3N (should be the majority of the cases) or with a very unbalanced hand in the minors, and in the latter case he will bid on.
3♠ is the last thing he wants to hear (and, IMO, in this auction should show an insufficient stopper in spades).
2N is the most practical and flexible re-bid: advancer hand is not too strong, but the minor Qs are very good cards, and the A in spades too. Let's hear what pard re-bids now: 6m might easily be there

[easy]

is using fourth suit forcing by the opening bidder a new treatment? How can the opening bidder deny a game force (by not jump shifting) and after partner takes a preference now use fsf? Granted with xx kx akjxx akxx i would certainly like it to be but...... since i dont think its applicable id choose 3c rather than 2 and apologize if we got too high. with qx kx akjxx aqxx id jump to 2nt and hope pard held at least jxx.

thus in my opinion 3s should be a good hand 3154 and as such i raise to 3s since spades certainly could be the place to play.

[joshs]

hatchett, on Mar 27 2006, 06:36 PM, said:

Quote

Partner is approximently 3154 with 17-18 HCP
Your possible bids are:
a. Pass (I would definitely pick this at mps)

Pass!

You can't be serious you expect partner to have a 3145 17/18 count and you have 3 working honors and you think pass is a viable option? Your hand can't be much better on the auction with nothing wasted in hearts. This hand is a good game.

Kxx
x
AKJxx
AKxx

and it wouldn't be totally shocking if partner had a 2164 such as

Kx x AKJxxx AJxx which is not a huge amount worse than slam on a finessse

It's not as though bidding over 2♠ commits you to game.

Which game contract were you proposing?
A9xx T9xx Qx QT9
Kxx x AKJxx AKxx

3N requires 4-4 hearts or a bad blockage (about 33%)

On the defense of heart heart (the normal defense vs a game level moysian), 4S requires 4-2 or better in spades ( 84%) AND 3-3 diamonds (36%) or the player with 4 trumps having 4 diamonds (a bit less than 48*24). Total=about 40%

5D requires 4-2 or better diamonds (84%) and clubs coming in (53%)=44%

5C requires 3-3 clubs and 4-2 or better diamonds=30%
6C requires the same as 5C.

Even if you wanted to get to a 40% game, its not trivial to insure that you get to the best game contract.
remove the DJ, and things get worse (4S becomes around 30%, 5D becomes about 18%, etc.)

[Fluffy]

You are right easy, FSF is a convention used by responder, not opener. Opener just bids what he has, doesn't ask anythign at all.

[joshs]

Kalvan14, on Mar 27 2006, 07:53 PM, said:

2♠ is a FSF, and in normal situations you'd raise it with 4 cards. However, opener cannot have 4 spades: he is establishing a GF situation, either aimed to play 3N (should be the majority of the cases) or with a very unbalanced hand in the minors, and in the latter case he will bid on.
3♠ is the last thing he wants to hear (and, IMO, in this auction should show an insufficient stopper in spades).
2N is the most practical and flexible re-bid: advancer hand is not too strong, but the minor Qs are very good cards, and the A in spades too. Let's hear what pard re-bids now: 6m might easily be there

2S is not 4'th suit forcing. Partner is limited by his 2D bid and can't have a game force. You could have passed 2D...

[joshs]

hatchett, on Mar 27 2006, 06:36 PM, said:

Quote

Partner is approximently 3154 with 17-18 HCP
Your possible bids are:
a. Pass (I would definitely pick this at mps)

Pass!

You can't be serious you expect partner to have a 3145 17/18 count and you have 3 working honors and you think pass is a viable option? Your hand can't be much better on the auction with nothing wasted in hearts. This hand is a good game.

Kxx
x
AKJxx
AKxx

and it wouldn't be totally shocking if partner had a 2164 such as

Kx x AKJxxx AJxx which is not a huge amount worse than slam on a finessse

It's not as though bidding over 2♠ commits you to game.

BTW, with 2164 he should bid 3D over 2D. Its important to tell partner that you actually have a fit.

[HeartA]

I agree with Marlowe.

[Codo]

joshs, on Mar 28 2006, 10:43 AM, said:

However,
2S is not 4'th suit forcing. Partner is limited by his 2D bid and can't have a game force. You could have passed 2D...

Pd is limited, so opener can use fsf to find out if he has 5-7 or8-9 HCPS and a spade stop. To take this bid for the single use of a 3154 distribution to find a 4-3 fit after you found at least a 5-2 fit seems to search for very rare hands, where you can win in this situation.
So, if pd is strong, but not GF, he is asking us for a stopper and our strength. I find this hand quite good in the context of my bidding so far, so I reach for game and bid 3 NT.

[awm]

Well I'm pretty sure that the 2♠ natural interpretation is standard, but I'm also pretty sure Elianna and I play it as 4th suit. Let's look at the hand types that want to bid over 2♦ in this auction:

With a minimum, opener will just pass 2♦, so all of these show something like 16-18 points.
With 3-card hearts, opener will normally bid 2♥. This surely shows extras since with a minimum and 1354 we'd raise directly.
With 6-card diamonds, or 5-card clubs, opener can rebid that suit.
With 2254 and a spade card or two, opener can rebid 2nt.

So the "problem" distributions are just 3154 and 2254 with no spade card. It seems like depending on your use of 2♠ you have basically two options:

(1) 2♠ is natural and shows 3154. With 2254 and no spade card, you either try 2NT (which seems awful, as it will wrong-side the contract after you've pinpointed the lead), or try 2♥ on a doubleton honor (this is awkward because it means partner must find a way to offer choice of games if holding five hearts and spade values, and also cannot pass 2♥ with a really garbage response including only four hearts).

(2) 2♠ is fourth-suit forcing, showing extras with only 5-4 minors, no three hearts, and no spade stop. This is normally 2254 with weak spades, but 3154 with three small spades is also possible. This leaves partner pretty well positioned. The problem is that you have no bid to pattern out, and will end up bidding 2nt with both 2254 and 3154 with spade stopper(s), and perhaps bidding three-minor on 3055 and 3064 shapes (not pinpointing the heart shortage).

Personally I believe that bidding 2nt with 3154 and good spades is not a big loss, since you're so rarely going to play in spades on this auction, and you usually don't have slam with something like 26 high (at best) and shortness opposite partner's suit. Also, 3055 and 3064 are relatively rare shapes. But I'd assume 2♠ natural if undiscussed.

[FrancesHinden]

It had never occurred to me to say that 'opener cannot use 4th suit forcing'. As far as I am concerned, a bid of the 4th suit is artificial and forcing (though not necessarily game forcing) in all uncontested auctions, unless I have specifically agreed otherwise. I am aware that there are some auctions where other people think the 4th suit is natural (in 2/1 FG auctions, for example) but I didn't think this was one of them.

The reason I don't bid 2NT over 2S here is that I don't think 2S is game forcing (I agree I don't see how it can be if partner couldn't bid 3C last round), and I want to show a good hand.

Off-hand I can think of exactly 4 auctions where I have agreed that the 4th suit is natural:

i) 1C - 1D - 1H - 1S (artificial) - 2S (4-card support in case opener in 4414)
ii) bidding the 4th suit, then bidding it again after partner bids NT
iii) Responding in 1 major, then jumping in the other major (1D-1M-2C-3OM)
iv) After a 2C opening and a positive, when 3NT would be forcing (2C - 2S F4NT - 3D - 3H - 4C)

[hatchett]

I agree that 2♠ is a one round force here it will often be semi-natural.

Quote

Which game contract were you proposing?
A9xx T9xx Qx QT9
Kxx x AKJxx AKxx

5D requires 4-2 or better diamonds (84%) and clubs coming in (53%)=44%

I was proposing 5D

if D are 3-3 it is spades or clubs coming in
if D are 4-2 it is clubs coming in
there are also extra chances like one hand having a 4234 shape etc

this is 50% plus ok for NV and good for V

[MickyB]

FrancesHinden, on Mar 28 2006, 08:35 AM, said:

It had never occurred to me to say that 'opener cannot use 4th suit forcing'.  As far as I am concerned, a bid of the 4th suit is artificial and forcing (though not necessarily game forcing) in all uncontested auctions, unless I have specifically agreed otherwise.

Interesting, I don't disagree with you often, but...

On this auction [1D:1H; 2C:2D] responder has shown no more values with 2D than he did with 1S. Therefore opener will rarely need to force - only when the 2D preference has significantly improved his hand. Most of the time he will be making a game-try, in which case he can do so naturally, with three hearts, a 5th club or a 6th diamond. Therefore I think 2S shows either a 3 card fragment or a 2254 not keen to declare (if you prefer this to Johnny's suggestion of choosing between 2H, 2NT and 3D on this hand). Maybe it is just a case of terminology, but that feels fairly natural to me.

[Fluffy]

joshs, on Mar 28 2006, 01:22 AM, said:

hatchett, on Mar 27 2006, 06:36 PM, said:

Quote

Partner is approximently 3154 with 17-18 HCP
Your possible bids are:
a. Pass (I would definitely pick this at mps)

Pass!

You can't be serious you expect partner to have a 3145 17/18 count and you have 3 working honors and you think pass is a viable option? Your hand can't be much better on the auction with nothing wasted in hearts. This hand is a good game.

Kxx
x
AKJxx
AKxx

and it wouldn't be totally shocking if partner had a 2164 such as

Kx x AKJxxx AJxx which is not a huge amount worse than slam on a finessse

It's not as though bidding over 2♠ commits you to game.

Which game contract were you proposing?
A9xx T9xx Qx QT9
Kxx x AKJxx AKxx

3N requires 4-4 hearts or a bad blockage (about 33%)

On the defense of heart heart (the normal defense vs a game level moysian), 4S requires 4-2 or better in spades ( 84%) AND 3-3 diamonds (36%) or the player with 4 trumps having 4 diamonds (a bit less than 48*24). Total=about 40%

5D requires 4-2 or better diamonds (84%) and clubs coming in (53%)=44%

5C requires 3-3 clubs and 4-2 or better diamonds=30%
6C requires the same as 5C.

Even if you wanted to get to a 40% game, its not trivial to insure that you get to the best game contract.
remove the DJ, and things get worse (4S becomes around 30%, 5D becomes about 18%, etc.)

Congrats to joshs since he got closer than anyone on this problem.

For 4♠ to be a playable contract, you need partner to have ♠K. But partner doesn't have it all the time, and as soon as he doesn't you won't make any game.

Best options were to pass, or to bid a practical 3NT hoping for defenders to miss their 4 ♥ tricks.

The full hand (I think):

---

[FrancesHinden]

MickyB, on Mar 28 2006, 11:05 AM, said:

FrancesHinden, on Mar 28 2006, 08:35 AM, said:

It had never occurred to me to say that 'opener cannot use 4th suit forcing'.  As far as I am concerned, a bid of the 4th suit is artificial and forcing (though not necessarily game forcing) in all uncontested auctions, unless I have specifically agreed otherwise.

Interesting, I don't disagree with you often, but...

On this auction [1D:1H; 2C:2D] responder has shown no more values with 2D than he did with 1S. Therefore opener will rarely need to force - only when the 2D preference has significantly improved his hand. Most of the time he will be making a game-try, in which case he can do so naturally, with three hearts, a 5th club or a 6th diamond. Therefore I think 2S shows either a 3 card fragment or a 2254 not keen to declare (if you prefer this to Johnny's suggestion of choosing between 2H, 2NT and 3D on this hand). Maybe it is just a case of terminology, but that feels fairly natural to me.

We agree about the hand type partner has (2254 or 3154). The terminology is relevant, because it affects what continuations and alternatives mean.

If 2S is 'natural', then a raise to 3S is also natural, while I think 3S just shows a good hand, doesn't really suggest playing spades (although it's hard to construct a hand without spade length) and is FORCING.

But if 2S is 'natural' then what does 2NT show? Aren't you using two different bids to show the same hand?

On the given hand, I would have been close between passing 2D and bidding 2NT. I wouldn't have thought of bidding 2S, because for me that is 'artificial' and denies a suitable alternative. I've certainly been in worse games than 3NT on those two hands, though both N and S have been a little pushy. After

1D - 1H
2C - 2NT
3NT

East might lead a spade. That's 9 tricks.

[cherdano]

FrancesHinden, on Mar 28 2006, 10:35 AM, said:

It had never occurred to me to say that 'opener cannot use 4th suit forcing'. As far as I am concerned, a bid of the 4th suit is artificial and forcing (though not necessarily game forcing) in all uncontested auctions, unless I have specifically agreed otherwise. I am aware that there are some auctions where other people think the 4th suit is natural (in 2/1 FG auctions, for example) but I didn't think this was one of them.

In my understanding of American bidding, opener is alway patterning out when bids the 4th suit with this 3rd bid. Examples of such auctions would be:
1D-1S-2H-2S-3C
1D-1H-1S-1N-2C
1D-1S-3C-3D-3H

Of course you then have a problem with 5422 and no stopper in the 4th suit, but when you have a strong enough hand for any of these auctions, you are usually good enough for a rebid of on of the other suits, or giving preference to responder's suit on Hx.

Arend

[awm]

The rule that I use is basically:

(1) If notrump has been bid, then bidding the fourth suit is as natural as possible (occasionally a three-card fragment) and patterning out.

(2) If notrump has not yet been bid, then bidding the fourth suit is primarily a stopper ask, and indicates a hand with no clear direction.

Again, I wouldn't claim that this rule is standard -- whether the fourth suit is natural or not in standard bidding seems to be more complicated than this.

In Arend's example I prefer to play:

1D-1S-2H-2S-3C: Forcing stopper ask, typically a 2452 hand with weak clubs, or a 2461/1462 hand with weak clubs and extra values (3D would be NF).

1D-1H-1S-1N-2C: Natural, 4144 or the like.

1D-1S-3C-3D-3H: Primarily asking partner to bid 3nt with a stopper. What else would one bid with a minimum game force and no interest in playing spades? Partner will usually bid 3D here with three or more just in case opener has a freak hand (yes preference on 2 also is possible), and many semi-balanced game forces don't want to bypass 3nt.

[hatchett]

Quote

But if 2S is 'natural' then what does 2NT show? Aren't you using two different bids to show the same hand?

I think 2NT is likely to show a spade stop amd a 2254 or a 3154 with a stiff heart honour.
2S will typically show heart weakness (singleton or void) and might very occasionally be an unbiddable hand such as xx Qx AKJxx AKJx etc

[joshs]

hatchett, on Mar 28 2006, 04:51 AM, said:

I agree that 2♠ is a one round force here it will often be semi-natural.

Quote

Which game contract were you proposing?
A9xx T9xx Qx QT9
Kxx x AKJxx AKxx

5D requires 4-2 or better diamonds (84%) and clubs coming in (53%)=44%

I was proposing 5D

if D are 3-3 it is spades or clubs coming in
if D are 4-2 it is clubs coming in
there are also extra chances like one hand having a 4234 shape etc

this is 50% plus ok for NV and good for V

You only have time to set up the long spade if trumps are 3-3 but I did forget about that case and it adds another 10% to the success probability. SO if partner has the DJ 5D is good. Were you suggesting bidding 4D over 2S?