[kgr]

FrancesHinden, on Mar 28 2006, 10:35 AM, said:

It had never occurred to me to say that 'opener cannot use 4th suit forcing'. As far as I am concerned, a bid of the 4th suit is artificial and forcing (though not necessarily game forcing) in all uncontested auctions, unless I have specifically agreed otherwise. I am aware that there are some auctions where other people think the 4th suit is natural (in 2/1 FG auctions, for example) but I didn't think this was one of them.

I agree with this and I'm surprised of the number of posters who think that 2S is natural. Is that a difference in treatment between American and Europe,...?

[joshs]

awm, on Mar 28 2006, 07:56 AM, said:

The rule that I use is basically:

(1) If notrump has been bid, then bidding the fourth suit is as natural as possible (occasionally a three-card fragment) and patterning out.

(2) If notrump has not yet been bid, then bidding the fourth suit is primarily a stopper ask, and indicates a hand with no clear direction.

Again, I wouldn't claim that this rule is standard -- whether the fourth suit is natural or not in standard bidding seems to be more complicated than this.

In Arend's example I prefer to play:

1D-1S-2H-2S-3C: Forcing stopper ask, typically a 2452 hand with weak clubs, or a 2461/1462 hand with weak clubs and extra values (3D would be NF).

1D-1H-1S-1N-2C: Natural, 4144 or the like.

1D-1S-3C-3D-3H: Primarily asking partner to bid 3nt with a stopper. What else would one bid with a minimum game force and no interest in playing spades? Partner will usually bid 3D here with three or more just in case opener has a freak hand (yes preference on 2 also is possible), and many semi-balanced game forces don't want to bypass 3nt.

I basically use the same rule but this auction just feels different to me, given that both players have already made non-forcing bids. Of course it is nice to have a bid for 2254 17-18 with weak spades, so I am far from convinced that natural is the best treatment... On the other hand, the 2254 hand can bid 3D or 3C next with a suitably strong suit, so thats not a huge loss.

[hatchett]

Quote

You only have time to set up the long spade if trumps are 3-3 but I did forget about that case and it adds another 10% to the success probability. SO if partner has the DJ 5D is good. Were you suggesting bidding 4D over 2S?

It's a tricky hand. Personally I think playing with a trusted partner , 4♥ which should mean pick a game has a lot of appeal. It should really show this exact shape, with 4NT showing 3523, although some might argue this belongs on the estorica thread!

The actual hand of QTx x AKxxx AKxx I consider marginal but reasonable for the action. It's a hand you can't always get right but if a fitting ace and two fitting queens are enough to at least try for game I find that surprising. You can't be too much stronger on this sequence. Note if partner has the KQ♠ game could be very good. For instance KQx x AKxxx AJxx.