[rbforster]

My first post here, so I'd welcome pointers to FAQ's or old discussions of this I might have overlooked. Thanks!

I've been considering trying to play natural weak two bids that might only have a 4 card suit. So 2♥ is something like 4-10 HCPs and 4+♥s. Aside from whether this is a good idea(!), can anyone help me make sense of this part of the General Convention Chart, which applies since my weak 2 bid wouldn't promise a 5 card suit?

Quote

GCC DISALLOWED #7: CONVENTIONAL RESPONSES, REBIDS AND A CONVENTIONAL DEFENSE TO AN OPPONENT’S CONVENTIONAL DEFENSE after ... weak two-bids which by partnership agreement are not within a range of 7 HCP and do not show at least five cards in the suit.

Am I strictly limited to "natural" calls after such an opening? From what I can tell, ACBL defines "natural" as promising 3+ in a minor or 4+ in a major for openings and responses.

Here are a few specific questions -

• If responder has 5=1=5=2 shape, is he restricted to bidding only ♠s or ♦s on his first call since other suit/NT bids wouldn't be "natural"? What about 4♥s?
  
• Are subsequent rebids by opener or responsed restricted this way? For example, could a 5=1=5=2 hand could eventually raise to 4♥ on a suitable hand?
  
• Do the rules on conventional responses and rebids refer to the first response and rebid, or the whole auction? Can you have use a convention later in the auction, like 2♥=2♠(forcing)=3♠=4NT Blackwood?
  
• Can I decide which "natural" bids are forcing or not, or is this decided in some other way? For example, can I play a 2NT response as either (natural and forcing) or (natural and NF) depending on which I like better?
  
• Can I still make common tactical psychs, like 2♥-2♠(NF) on fewer than 4♠s to try to swindle the opponents out of the 4♠ game? Obviously opener would be expected to pass holding ♠ length and not field this psych.

Has anyone actually be subjected to this rule in practice? What kind of logic gets applied in this cases? Any advice or experience would be welcome.

[pbleighton]

Welcome to the Forums.

"Am I strictly limited to "natural" calls after such an opening? From what I can tell, ACBL defines "natural" as promising 3+ in a minor or 4+ in a major for openings and responses."

Yes, you are limited to natural calls.

"Do the rules on conventional responses and rebids refer to the first response and rebid, or the whole auction?"

The whole auction.

"Can I decide which "natural" bids are forcing or not, or is this decided in some other way? For example, can I play a 2NT response as either (natural and forcing) or (natural and NF) depending on which I like better?"

Yes, you can choose whether a bid is forcing or not.

"Can I still make common tactical psychs, like 2♥-2♠(NF) on fewer than 4♠s to try to swindle the opponents out of the 4♠ game? Obviously opener would be expected to pass holding ♠ length and not field this psych."

Yes, but better be careful.

"Has anyone actually be subjected to this rule in practice?"

There was an NABC ruling within the last year, I believe, which dealt with a range of greater than 7 hcp, where it was ruled that you can't use conventional calls after it, and that it must be on the card.

General comment as to playability - I play undisciplined twos, 9(8)-12, may be a bad 5 card suit, and I can't imagine playing them without my 2NT inquiry. I think you will have an exceedingly difficult time with your constructive bidding - which is the ACBL's motive for having this ridiculous regulation.

Peter

[awm]

The definition of "natural" is kind of fuzzy. In general a bid that is suggesting a place to play and will be frequently passed should be considered natural. So if partner opens 2♥, any heart bid which is basically to play should be ok. Thus responder can raise hearts freely (unless these raises are forcing in some way).

For notrump responses, I think you're okay if partner's most frequent next call will be pass (for example 1♦-1NT in standard bidding doesn't show a balanced hand). If partner's not going to pass (or will almost never pass) then you need a balanced hand. You're always free to decide what is forcing or not; I played 8-10 1NTs in ACBL events for a while and got around some of the problems by having 2NT as a natural force (basically takes the place of GF stayman although you can't bid it with an unbalanced hand).

There's often a thin line between a tactical psych and an illegal agreement. Certainly I think some expert pairs are on the wrong side of this line. In any case this will always be director's discretion.

[pbleighton]

"There's often a thin line between a tactical psych and an illegal agreement."

I believe that the applicable line is frequency.

Peter

[rbforster]

pbleighton, on Mar 18 2006, 07:52 PM, said:

General comment as to playability - I play undisciplined twos, 9(8)-12, may be a bad 5 card suit, and I can't imagine playing them without my 2NT inquiry.  I think you will have an exceedingly difficult time with your constructive bidding - which is the ACBL's motive for having this ridiculous regulation.

Thanks for the replies. I know that constructive bidding will be severly hampered by the lack of conventional inquiries. Depending on how bad constructive auctions look, I may end up playing this preempt style only in 3rd seat. Still, 4 card suits come up a lot more than 6 card ones .

[pbleighton]

"Still, 4 card suits come up a lot more than 6 card ones"

Try 5 card suits

Peter

[rbforster]

Quote

GCC DISALLOWED #7: CONVENTIONAL RESPONSES, REBIDS AND A CONVENTIONAL DEFENSE TO AN OPPONENT’S CONVENTIONAL DEFENSE after ... weak two-bids which by partnership agreement are not within a range of 7 HCP and do not show at least five cards in the suit.

Another quick followup question on interpreting the above rule. The ACBL charts specifically separates bidding restrictions into "openings", "responses and rebids", and "competitive" categories. This suggests to me that the restriction above on "no conventional responses or rebids" applies only to non-competitive auctions.

In competitive auctions, we are clearly not allowed to play a conventional defense to conventional competition. However, it seems like we might be allowed to play a conventional defense to natural competitive actions by the opponents. In particular, it would be nice to have 2♥-X-XX as something special (rescue, 2 places to play maybe?) after a natural double. Similarly, perhaps we would have a special meaning to cuebidding an overcalled suit, 2♥-(2♠)-3♠.

I got the impression from talking to some long time players that this rule usually was interpreted to forbid any conventional bids at all, in any auction, competitive or otherwise. Upon reading the rules carefully, I am less sure. Any thoughts on this, either in practice or otherwise? Thanks!

[FrancesHinden]

Rob F, on Apr 15 2006, 10:53 PM, said:

I got the impression from talking to some long time players that this rule usually was interpreted to forbid any conventional bids at all, in any auction, competitive or otherwise. Upon reading the rules carefully, I am less sure. Any thoughts on this, either in practice or otherwise? Thanks!

I also believe the rule is interpreted to forbid any conventional bids at all, in any auction. Basically, the reason that rule is there is to (try to) stop you playing the method at all. As a 4-card weak two is a 'natural' bid, they can't have system regulations to prevent you playing it, so they can't ban it. All they can regulate are conventions, so they ban any and all conventions after an opening bid they don't want you to make.

p.s. the ACBL aren't the only organisation to do this, for example in England you can play a 7-10 1NT opening if you like, but with no conventions.

[hrothgar]

FrancesHinden, on Apr 16 2006, 01:20 AM, said:

Rob F, on Apr 15 2006, 10:53 PM, said:

I got the impression from talking to some long time players that this rule usually was interpreted to forbid any conventional bids at all, in any auction, competitive or otherwise.  Upon reading the rules carefully, I am less sure.  Any thoughts on this, either in practice or otherwise?  Thanks!

I also believe the rule is interpreted to forbid any conventional bids at all, in any auction. Basically, the reason that rule is there is to (try to) stop you playing the method at all. As a 4-card weak two is a 'natural' bid, they can't have system regulations to prevent you playing it, so they can't ban it. All they can regulate are conventions, so they ban any and all conventions after an opening bid they don't want you to make.

p.s. the ACBL aren't the only organisation to do this, for example in England you can play a 7-10 1NT opening if you like, but with no conventions.

As Frances notes, the WBF asserts that Law 40D gives Sponsoring Authorites unlimited power to regulate conventions.

Some folks questioned Grattan Endicott trying to indentify where there were any limits on the descretionary authority granted by Law 40D. He was specifically asked where a sponsoring organization could pass regulations such

"Players of Russian descent may not play any conventions what-so-ever" or
"Players who did not revoke on the previous hand may not play conventions"

Grattan claims that the sponsoring organizations can do whatever they damn well please. Players will be protected by the well known common sense and restraint of the regulatory authorities.

It was at this point in time that I decided that "rules lawyering" is the name of the game. The "Spirit of the Laws" has no meaning what-so-ever. Players should do anything and everything they can to give themselves an extra edge.

[pigpenz]

Well ACBL adopter 5-5 rule five card suit at least 5hcp.
Barry Crane and Kerri Shuman used to open four card suits 3rd seat as weak twos often. They do work, had one I opened in Pasadena once agains LA larry Cohen and misplayed hand and slammed cards down on the table. In those days Larry used to frequently play with Barry

[Elianna]

pigpenz, on Apr 16 2006, 04:11 PM, said:

Well ACBL adopter 5-5 rule five card suit at least 5hcp.

And have done away with that rule a LONG time ago.

[PassedOut]

Marty Bergen had quite a bit of success opening weak two-bids on chunky four-card suits before the ACBL clamped down. I agree with Marty that, in the right circumstances, those bids can be good bridge.

In my younger days I loved to make weak jump overcalls in strong 4-card suits when the situation was right (especially after Precision 1♣ openings), and encountered considerable hostility from opponents in return (which added to my enjoyment of the game). I don't do so now because, alas, all partners have heard of the law of total tricks and feel obliged to raise whenever they have some trump support.

[mikestar]

The application of this rule is quite strict in the ACBL: no conventions whatsoever after opening a weak two which might be four cards. That include no takeout doubles and no SOS redoubles (both of which could be quite useful)--double must be for penalties and redoubles are expecting to make.

[Free]

mikestar, on Apr 17 2006, 02:37 PM, said:

The application of this rule is quite strict in the ACBL: no conventions whatsoever after opening a weak two which might be four cards. That include no takeout doubles and no SOS redoubles (both of which could be quite useful)--double must be for penalties and redoubles are expecting to make.

That's old school man, who invents these rules??? Am I glad I live in a free country

[pigpenz]

just read Bridge World if the ACBL had their way they would be telling people what an opening bid is