[pbleighton]

"Without gadgets, 2S shows less than invitational values, ~6-9, with (usually) 6+ cards.

That doesn't mean opener can't bid again (unless maybe you are playing a 15+ strong club). With AJx-KQx-AQJxxx-x, you are surely not going to pass.

Peter


If you hold this hand, haven't you already grossly underbid by only bidding 2♦? So, sure, if you grossly underbid then you can correct it later if you get the chance.

I'd say that if you would raise with 3 card support and a singleton that it is tough to find a 12-14 pt hand with ♠ doubleton that would want to take some action. Perhaps not impossible but I would imagine such hands are rare."

Oops! I was sleeping

Try again. I don't raise with 3 card support and a singleton if the three card suit is worthless. A hand like xxx-AKx-AKJxxx-x is one I would rebid 2D, and then bid 3S over 2S. Not common, but not totally rare. You may raise to 2S on this, it's a matter of style.

Peter

[mike777]

"Try again. I don't raise with 3 card support and a singleton if the three card suit is worthless. A hand like xxx-AKx-AKJxxx-x is one I would rebid 2D, and then bid 3S over 2S. Not common, but not totally rare. You may raise to 2S on this, it's a matter of style."


Wow bidding 2d on that hand seems to be a huge position even if we assume 1s may be on zero hcp. .

[kenberg]

whereagles, on Mar 18 2006, 03:59 AM, said:

Luis, it's difficult to give a definite answer to your question of what requirements you need for the 2♠ bid. As you know, a 2♠ bid in this situation can be the lesser evil with a hand like

♠ KJTxx
♥ xxx
♦
♣ Kxxxx

Sure, you can build prototypes for the 2♠ bid, like the book examples on on stuff like AQJxxx xxx x Qxx, but in reality it's hard to say what type of hand 2♠ really shows, since it can vary a lot. The frontiers get better defined if you play weak jump, though.

As for whether if should be constructive or not, well, if you play 3rd suit forcing (e.g. 1♦-1♠-2♦-2♥* = art, forcing, inv+), then you can play 2♠ as not-so-constructive. Otherwise you may have a case for a constructive 2♠. I say "may" because it's not certain it should be so.

On the above hand, after 1D-1S-2D, I would pass 2D.
It will probably go down. However:

a. We are not yet doubled. If we are, I will perhaps trot out the spades, or maybe better redouble, which should show a hand that can't stand diamonds but isn't all that enamored with spades either. Also only modest hearts since with 5-4 surely I would have bid 2H or pulled to 2H. Pard can try clubs if he is really short in spades.

b. On some other day I might actually have a better hand. I would like partner to think more positively of my spades on those times when I do rebid spades.


So

1D-1S-2D-2S for me should be something like

KQxxxx
xx
x
Qxxx


You can't always get what you want, they tell me, but I would like to wait on something like this before rebidding 2S.

There is a neigboring thread discussing whether 1m-1M-2m-3M is forcing. In my style, no. Change the xx of hearts to Ax, and one of the spades spots to the ten, and it appears to me to be a 3S bid. With trash, pard can pass.

As noted, if you play that my KQxxxx, xx, x, Qxxx hand can be bid 1D-2S, then of course this changes things. Perhaps that's a good idea, I just have never done it.

[Gerben42]

Quote

The other group says "Without values responder can pass 2♦ so when he bids 2♠ it's non-forcing but shows values, at least the values to decide not to pass 2♦ so opener with a good hand can cooperate and bid again"

I'm in this group.

[cherdano]

Gerben42, on Mar 18 2006, 08:07 PM, said:

Quote

The other group says "Without values responder can pass 2♦ so when he bids 2♠ it's non-forcing but shows values, at least the values to decide not to pass 2♦ so opener with a good hand can cooperate and bid again"

I'm in this group.

Me too. Although the hands where I would bid again as opener are rare.

[pbleighton]

"Wow bidding 2d on that hand seems to be a huge position even if we assume 1s may be on zero hcp."

Your statement seems like a huge position to me

Seriously, I don't like jumping in the minors with 15 counts, unless there is a near-solid suit. The majors are a different story - with hearts with the auction 1H-1S I would probably bid 3S.

Peter

[awm]

Seems like the answer to this will depend on a lot of questions, among which:

(1) What is 1♦-2♠ (if it's weak or invitational it reduces the possible hand types)?
(2) Could the 2♦ rebid ever be a five-card suit?
(3) Could the 2♠ rebid ever be a five-card suit?
(4) How frequent is it for the 2♦ bidder to hold three spades?
(5) What are the upper and lower limits of strength for a 2♦ bid?

For Elianna and me, the answers are:

(1) Strong; at least a game force with good spades.
(2) Virtually never. The problem distributions are 2-4-5-2 and 1-4-5-3; with either we will rebid 1NT holding up to 15 or so hcp (with the first we might've opened 1NT with 15-16), and we will reverse into 2♥ holding a decent 16 or so and 1453.
(3) Never. Even with a diamond void, the knowledge that partner has 6+ diamonds and almost never 3 spades makes pulling to 2♠ undesirable.
(4) Very rare, we usually raise on three. The exceptions include very strong diamonds and usually weak spades (xxx Kx AQJTxx Qx).
(5) Minimum around 11, we are willing to open a weak 2♦ on reasonable ten counts. We also jump to 3♦ fairly freely (for example Kx Ax AQJTxxx xx is a 3♦ bid, x KQx KQJxxx Axx is a 3♦ bid), so the upper range is normally 14, or occasionally 15 with a weakish suit.

Under these constraints it makes sense for 2♠ to be a fairly wide range of values; we know we don't have enough for 3NT for example. Opener can raise with a hand particularly suited to playing spades opposite a known six-card suit (xxx Kx AQJTxx Qx, Kx Axxx AQxxxx x).

[Fluffy]

I cannot think of any hand that may bid over 2♠ on this sequence. Except one that bids 3♦ with ♦KQJ10xxx and ♠void.