[sceptic]

Questions,

1/. is 1nt after a pass semi forcing or forcing and if it is forcing is it only by agreement?

2/. would you raise spades diectly as a passed hand

3/. what do you think of my judgement passing 1NT instead of showing some shape and bidding 2 diamonds?

Scoring: IMP

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West North East South

 -     Pass  Pass  1♠
 Pass  1NT   Pass  Pass
 Pass  

[Walddk]

1. Non-forcing. Passed hands can't force. By the way, even though 1NT is forcing in 2/1 over 1MA, it should be passable opposite 11-13 balanced in my opinion.

2. Yes. Partner will certainly pass 1NT by a passed hand if he has a balanced minimum, and then you are often in the wrong spot. Remember that opener can't have 4 hearts if he passes 1NT.

3. Passing is a view, but I would bid out my shape with 2♦. 1NT could be a silly contract where you want to be in diamonds or spades instead. Sometimes even 2♥ although this is unlikely here because North didn't open a weak 2.

Roland

[cherdano]

Assuming you don't play drury, your options with the North hand are 2♠, or 2♥ (hoping partner doesn't pass) and raise to 3♠ later. The problem with 2♠ is that it is an underbid really, this hand is very powerful once a fit has been found.

[luis]

I believe a passed hand MUST show support with support, the auction is potentially competitive so supporting should be the first priority.
Because of that I find the 1NT bid plain horrible.
2♠ seems to be fine, if opener has a good hand he will invite and responder can accept based on his good distributional values.
About your pass of 1NT I don't like it with a 5-4 hand it is always better to show your 2 suits, you can have a nice diammond fit and go down a lot in 1NT.

Luis

[barmar]

Although most play that 1NT is only semi-forcing by a passed hand, this illustrates why I like to play it as almost-always-forcing if you don't play Drury. North has a hand that's initially worth a 3-card limit raise.

However, when opener rebids his void, he should probably slow down. With an opening trump lead and return he's not going to be able to ruff many ♦, so even 2♠ looks like it may be in trouble.

But swap South's minors or red suits (with the necessary tweaks to avoid duplicate cards in both hands) and you discover a nice double fit, and game has good prospects.

[mikeh]

1. In standard and in some variants of 2/1, 1N is not forcing by a passed hand. A significant group play it as semi-forcing, while in my experience only a small number play it as forcing. It is important that you have a firm agreement not only on this but also on whether you open 4 card majors in 3rd and 4th: if you do, then playing 1N as forcing is a poor choice. I happen to believe (as do the vast majority of good players I have played with or against) that 4 card majors in 3rd and 4th are a good idea.

2. I would raise ♠ as a passed hand. If we are playing 4 card majors, then we are (I assume) playing that 1N is at most semi-forcing. Thus there is far too great a risk of playing in 1N, and this is an excellent hand for ♠. If we are 4-4, the short hand is scoring ruffs, which adds greatly to the trick taking potential of the hand. Plus, if partner has 5+♠, he is more likely to be encouraged to probe for game than if you make a support-denying initial response. And if 1N is forcing, then this hand is too good for the slow road to 2♠.

3. I tend to rebid 2♦ with these hands regardless of the degree of force connected with the 1N. I can see passing 1N at mps, but not at imps. It is entirley possible, looking at the south hand, that any of ♦/♥ or ♠ may be better than 1N: so you have 3 ways to win by bidding and only one way to lose (that is a slight oversimplification, of course). BTW

[mike777]

Great posted hand Wayne, a lot of issues here for nonexpert players.
Coming back to bridge I can see how both these hands are problem hands for us but clear hands for the good players.

Based on these comments perhaps the lessons are:
1) as a passed hand just try and support pard in a clear way immed. even if the bid seems to be imperfect.
2) As opener just try and bid out our shape, longest and strongest suit then second longest and strongest suit. For players at our level if our longest suits are not our strongest we may have problems but that is an issue for another day .

[P_Marlowe]

1) I play 1NT as forcing, which means 1 NT can contain
a fit for partner, but than I dont play Drury.
The adv. is , I dont play a different scheme as a passed hand,
hence I dont need to learn / remember something specific,
the dis. adv. it is probably not optimal
2) I would try to sell the hand as an limit raise, i.e. either
bid 1NT followed by 3S, or Drury, or playing Mini Splinter bid 3D
3) I prefer to show my shape, if 1 NT can contain fit, passing
is problematic

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Limey_p]

Quote

1/. is 1nt after a pass semi forcing or forcing and if it is forcing is it only by agreement?

The short answer is you need an agreement. I don't know there's a standard, and you and I might reasonably differ on the meaning of "semi forcing", at least until we've discussed it.

Quote

2/. would you raise spades directly as a passed hand

I'd like to, opposite a known 5-card major. I play drury and I guess this hand would qualify. Without drury or opposite a 4-card opener, it is an ugly problem.

Quote

what do you think of my judgement passing 1NT instead of showing some shape and bidding 2 diamonds?

It's not a position I would take, even at matchpoints. I see the hand as having a "suit aspect" - you have primary honors in the long suits, and no real stoppers outside.

Andy