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RKCB comes highly recommended, P would like to play it & I am willing but...
The subsequent auction seems a mess unless the answer is 2 or 5; does anyone have a "logical" system?
The value of 0314 V 1403 escapes me if there is no answer to "What does 5NT ask for/about?"
Again, read Bridgeguys page... "Two schools of thought", both get messy, ;D.
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Roman Key Card Blackwood
#1
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Posted 2003-April-17, 08:01
"I know that there is only one power worth having. That is the power, not to take, but to accept; not to have, but to give."
#2
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Posted 2003-April-17, 09:44
If you are upto it, Eddie Kantar had posted his 22 chapter epic on roman keycard auctions on the web for all to read free. It can be found at http://www.kantarbridge.com/rkb.htm
It is very logical and very well spelled out what ever sequence means, but as you can imagine, 22 chapters require quite some work to assimilate. I have thoughly enjoyed reading his RKCB section and I am trying to incorporate his ideas into my bidding. I suggest if you are interested go read some of his stuff, but be aware... first it is deceptively addicting, and second, it really isn't as simple as he makes it look unless you work at it and work at it.
Look for the thread by Yzerman under "FINDING A PARTNER" entitled "Practice Kantors RKC (full version)" for people willing to practice it with you and hopefully get questions answered about using it. I was amazed how much key information Kantor's RKCB can beat out of a hand. Astounding.
As for your two questions... "1)The subsequent auction seems a mess unless the answer is 2 or 5; does anyone have a "logical" system? " Yes, Eddie Kantar does, see above. He bids cheapest new suit to ask for trump queen, not bidding cheapest new suit is either attempt at possible signoff (in agreed suit), or a specific asking bid. If 5NT, it is specific king asking bid, if it is a new suit (other than cheapest), it is a specific suit asking bid. In response to specific queen asking bid, responder bids cheapest KING when holding the asked for QUEEN. Bids 5NT when holding "significant extra value" (generally a queen in partners other suit, or a queen in your other suit) and 6 of the agreed trump suit without either.
and 2. "The value of 0314 V 1403 escapes me if there is no answer to "What does 5NT ask for/about?" . In Kantar system, 5NT is "specific king ask". As for 0314 o4 1403, be prepared to have your socks blown off when you read what he plays... he plays both types... and its not some cute 0314 for minors and 1403 for majors either. After heart agreement for instance, sometimes 4NT responses are 1403 and sometime 0314.... and he explains easily why you use differenet responses and which are used. Very useful reading indeed.
Ben
It is very logical and very well spelled out what ever sequence means, but as you can imagine, 22 chapters require quite some work to assimilate. I have thoughly enjoyed reading his RKCB section and I am trying to incorporate his ideas into my bidding. I suggest if you are interested go read some of his stuff, but be aware... first it is deceptively addicting, and second, it really isn't as simple as he makes it look unless you work at it and work at it.
Look for the thread by Yzerman under "FINDING A PARTNER" entitled "Practice Kantors RKC (full version)" for people willing to practice it with you and hopefully get questions answered about using it. I was amazed how much key information Kantor's RKCB can beat out of a hand. Astounding.
As for your two questions... "1)The subsequent auction seems a mess unless the answer is 2 or 5; does anyone have a "logical" system? " Yes, Eddie Kantar does, see above. He bids cheapest new suit to ask for trump queen, not bidding cheapest new suit is either attempt at possible signoff (in agreed suit), or a specific asking bid. If 5NT, it is specific king asking bid, if it is a new suit (other than cheapest), it is a specific suit asking bid. In response to specific queen asking bid, responder bids cheapest KING when holding the asked for QUEEN. Bids 5NT when holding "significant extra value" (generally a queen in partners other suit, or a queen in your other suit) and 6 of the agreed trump suit without either.
and 2. "The value of 0314 V 1403 escapes me if there is no answer to "What does 5NT ask for/about?" . In Kantar system, 5NT is "specific king ask". As for 0314 o4 1403, be prepared to have your socks blown off when you read what he plays... he plays both types... and its not some cute 0314 for minors and 1403 for majors either. After heart agreement for instance, sometimes 4NT responses are 1403 and sometime 0314.... and he explains easily why you use differenet responses and which are used. Very useful reading indeed.
Ben
--Ben--
#3
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Posted 2003-April-17, 09:59
If the answer isn't 2 or 5, then the presence of the Q is still uncertain.
Quite logically then, the cheapest non-trump suit bid asks for the Q.
In response, a bid of the trump suit at the 5 level denies the Q. A bid of a suit shows the trump Q and the K of the suit bid. A bid of 5NT shows the Q and "extras" (but not a K), and a bid of 6 of the trump suit shows the Q but no K or extras.
Bids other than the Q ask about that particular suit. In response, the more you bid the more you show.
As regards 0314 vs 1430. It boils down to this: how often are you going to need to ask further if partner has 0 keycards? Since the answer is "hardly ever" it makes sense to leave more room over the 1 ace response. So in most sequences it pays to play 1430. The most common one is when Hearts are agreed. If the response of 5D shows one Ace, then you can not ask for the trump Queen without going past 5H.
5NT is probably best used as an ask for particular Kings. Responder cue bids his cheapest King.
RKCB is a huge topic, and so I haven't filled in many of the details because I wouldn't know where to stop! There are various improvements which can be made (at the not insignificant risk of memory overload). I shall mention two of them which are both logical, but laible to be forgotten at the table
1) If either player has shown a singleton then that suit becomes the Q ask. this is logical because you will very rarely need to ask about this particular suit, so it would otherwise be a wasted bid.
2) If the Blackwooder asks for the Q and responder denies it, then a 5NT bid asks for extra trump length, not for Kings. This is logical because if Kings were important , 5NT could have been bid immediately, but an extra trump can be the equivalent of the trump Queen (with a ten card fit, the Queen is likely to drop).
I don't know whether this has clarified anything or made it all seem even messier.
The most important thing is this: A bidding mix-up at the slam level is likely to cost more points than you gain from having a slightly superior bidding mechanism. So if you and your partner aren't prepared to put a lot of effort into sorting out the nuances, then it really isn't worth adding it to your arsenal.
Quite logically then, the cheapest non-trump suit bid asks for the Q.
In response, a bid of the trump suit at the 5 level denies the Q. A bid of a suit shows the trump Q and the K of the suit bid. A bid of 5NT shows the Q and "extras" (but not a K), and a bid of 6 of the trump suit shows the Q but no K or extras.
Bids other than the Q ask about that particular suit. In response, the more you bid the more you show.
As regards 0314 vs 1430. It boils down to this: how often are you going to need to ask further if partner has 0 keycards? Since the answer is "hardly ever" it makes sense to leave more room over the 1 ace response. So in most sequences it pays to play 1430. The most common one is when Hearts are agreed. If the response of 5D shows one Ace, then you can not ask for the trump Queen without going past 5H.
5NT is probably best used as an ask for particular Kings. Responder cue bids his cheapest King.
RKCB is a huge topic, and so I haven't filled in many of the details because I wouldn't know where to stop! There are various improvements which can be made (at the not insignificant risk of memory overload). I shall mention two of them which are both logical, but laible to be forgotten at the table
1) If either player has shown a singleton then that suit becomes the Q ask. this is logical because you will very rarely need to ask about this particular suit, so it would otherwise be a wasted bid.
2) If the Blackwooder asks for the Q and responder denies it, then a 5NT bid asks for extra trump length, not for Kings. This is logical because if Kings were important , 5NT could have been bid immediately, but an extra trump can be the equivalent of the trump Queen (with a ten card fit, the Queen is likely to drop).
I don't know whether this has clarified anything or made it all seem even messier.
The most important thing is this: A bidding mix-up at the slam level is likely to cost more points than you gain from having a slightly superior bidding mechanism. So if you and your partner aren't prepared to put a lot of effort into sorting out the nuances, then it really isn't worth adding it to your arsenal.
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