[pclayton]

Chris Larsen gave me this hand. I think the continuation is pretty clear, but I wanted to ask all of you.

IMPs, Long matches, no one vul.

Scoring: IMP

---

RHO opens 1♥ and you double. LHO passes and pard bids 1N.

RHO now competes with 2♥. Your call?

[mike777]

X

Double always seems to be the winning call in a bid quiz, we can explain, in the bar later, how it showed this hand exactly.

[pbleighton]

2NT, with 3NT very close and double reasonable.

So I guess I don't see it as "pretty clear"

Peter

[whereagles]

3NT wtp?

Seriously, though.. why complicate what is simple? Pard + we = 7-10 + 17 = 24-27 hcp, plus all honors marked.

[inquiry]

I think 3NT seems the value bid here too. A second double, if it is still takeout is ok (if you play all doubles until suit agreement is takeout), but that could lead to doubling them into game. The one negative factor on this hand is its lack of aces. On this auction, partner probably will have only one stopper, which means we must take our tricks when we get in. 1!H, 5!D on a good day (give partner the !DQ and suit runs) is six. If he has !CA, all is well, if he has !SA we may need the !S hook. Still a black ACE, a sure heart stopper, and a black ace is not too much to ask for (or maybe partner has five clubs to ACE or even four)

[mikeh]

3N

2N is close, especially at this vulnerability, but that cuts both ways: partner will be a little less aggressive white, and so you may miss a playable game.

That ♥J may be critical in terms of providing a second stopper, and there is no way for partner to picture that card.

Add to this the very real possibility that when 3N fails, it goes down more than 1 trick, and the odds swing in favour of aggression. The ♥J comes into play here as well, in that it will almost certainly prevent a double on hands in which the contract is doomed.

[awm]

2NT for me. I think it depends on the range for partner's 1NT advance. For me this is something like 6-9 (with a little fudge factor on either end). I know some play 7-10 or even 8-11, which makes a lot of sense opposite an overcall (frequently as few as 8 hcp) but seems weird opposite the double (which promises an opening hand). I prefer not to have to bid three card suits opposite partner's takeout double unless my hand is really bad (i.e. not on 5-7 points because I'm "not strong enough" to make my natural 1NT call).

[joshs]

pclayton, on Mar 6 2006, 12:24 PM, said:

Chris Larsen gave me this hand. I think the continuation is pretty clear, but I wanted to ask all of you.

IMPs, Long matches, no one vul.

Scoring: IMP

---

RHO opens 1♥ and you double. LHO passes and pard bids 1N.

RHO now competes with 2♥. Your call?

2N. NOT x with a 5 card minor and a singleton heart. You do not want partner to pass.
3D would be my second choice but its an over bid. I don't think I am nearly good enough for 3N, but I lack aces (e.g. my side tricks other than diamonds are too slow). Give partner Qx Axxx Qxx Jxx (sort of a max, well kind of) and you were not even making 1N. Actually, I think the overbid of 3D is more likely to get you to the correct strain.

Actually, I just changed my mind. I prefer the overbid that will get you to the correct strain. I vote for 3D. I will pass if partner raises to 4D and I will rebid 3N if he Qbids.

[awm]

On the other hand, with Josh's example of Qxx Axxx Qxx Jxx (okay I added a 13th card) you'll probably make 3NT if one of the small hearts is the ten or even the nine. Still 2NT for me thanks.

[jdeegan]

3NT with 2NT as a close second. RHO will be subject to working finesses and frequent endplays, and my diamonds should run, and my ♥ J figures to be worth a trick.

By the way, seven responders chose DBL. Wtf is that all about? Take out? So, what is pard supposed to do? If for penalties, then why pick on a possible nine card fit for them?

[mike777]

jdeegan, on Mar 6 2006, 09:04 PM, said:

  3NT with 2NT as a close second.  RHO will be subject to working finesses and frequent endplays, and my diamonds should run, and my ♥ J figures to be worth a trick. 

By the way, seven responders chose DBL.  Wtf is that all about?  Take out? So, what is pard supposed to do?  If for penalties, then why pick on a possible nine card fit for them?

Yes it is takeout with a more than a minimim. Funny enough partner is suppose to bid his hand. 1NT does not promise even 6 hcp...If partner shows 8-9 hcp and a heart stopper this hand is a nonproblem...but she does not!

[mikeh]

mike777, on Mar 6 2006, 10:17 PM, said:

1NT does not promise even 6 hcp...If partner shows 8-9 hcp and a heart stopper this hand is a nonproblem...but she does not!

Those of you who think that 1N does not promise even as few as 6 hcp are (I believe) a very small minority, at least amongst expert players. 1N is a constructive bid, not a cry for help. You should advance the double as if partner holds Axxx x Axxx Axxx: and who in their right mind would choose 1N on even a 3=4=3=3 4 count?? Suck it up and bid 1♠ on that hand. With confidence

[Chamaco]

Just a question to the "expert panel" here.

Discarding any possible artificial meaning from the 2NT rebid, what would be the meaning of this bid ?

I interpreted that the 2NT rebid should show a natural balanced hand > 15 hcp, say in the 16-17/18 range hence i voted for 2NT.
The 1NT bidder would hopefully be able to bid 3NT in those hands where it's right, no ?

Had I held a 15 count, I'd have passed, not rebid.


Do you think this approach is too conservative or outdated or outright wrong ?

[pclayton]

When I was given the hand, I doubled. I think it shows approximately this range of strength. My regular pard also doubled. Why can't hearts be 1-1-5-6 around the table? Double is very flexible (that word again) and caters to a lot of different possibilities. The argument against double is perhaps it isn't that well defined.

Chris bid 2N (invitational) and his pard passed (?) with: Qxx, QT8x, xx, AT9x. Certainly the J♥ is a nice card. Doubling gets you +100 (high diamond lead) +300 (trump), assume pard converts. Declarer held: Ax, K9xxxxx, QJx, x.

At the other table his teammate opened 4♥, whack, -500.

[joshs]

Chamaco, on Mar 7 2006, 01:07 AM, said:

Just a question to the "expert panel" here.

Discarding any possible artificial meaning from the 2NT rebid, what would be the meaning of this bid ?

I interpreted that the 2NT rebid should show a natural balanced hand > 15 hcp, say in the 16-17/18 range hence i voted for 2NT.
The 1NT bidder would hopefully be able to bid 3NT in those hands where it's right, no ?

Had I held a 15 count, I'd have passed, not rebid.


Do you think this approach is too conservative or outdated or outright wrong ?

2N is INV opposite partner's 7-10 point hand (about what 1N shows, modify range if necessary). It doesn't strictly speaking have to be balanced since partner has already shown a stopper.

[mikeh]

Chamaco, on Mar 7 2006, 01:07 AM, said:

Just a question to the "expert panel" here.

Discarding any possible artificial meaning from the 2NT rebid, what would be the meaning of this bid ?

I would not use point count as a primary descriptor here. I think that 2N shows a hand that would like to be in 3N opposite the upper range of partner's 1N, whatever that 1N means in your partnership. In reality, many times it will be a 15-16 balanced or semi-balanced hand, but if there is one thing that I have become aware of in my own game it is that I tend to think less and less in terms of the number of high card points I hold and more and more in terms of how the hand feels. That is why I chose 3N as my bid (with 2N close): this hand, with its AK10xx suit and that ♥J (which it turns out was as valuable as I had hoped) is just too good to risk a pass from partner.

It is the type of hand (with the odds that missing ♠ cards or a missing ♣A are onside) that results in 23 point games being cold 'on the lie of the cards'.

BTW, if partner's 1N was 8-10 or even 7-10, then arguably he has correct to pass 2N: which is (at the risk of repeating myself) why I would not have given him the chance.

[whereagles]

Hum.. well, considering you know where most of the missing hcp are, I'd say 3NT might very well make on 24 on a regular basis.