[Walddk]

awm, on Feb 14 2006, 04:56 PM, said:

Perhaps the ideal in the long run would be to set up vugraph-like controls for team matches, so that if certain options are selected, only "official commentators" would be able to chat to kibitzers.

That would be ideal, I agree, and I have mentioned this to Uday before. As far as I understand, it's not a trivial issue. Maybe in a future release now that the world class team matches seem to be here to stay.

Roland

[Walddk]

cherdano, on Feb 14 2006, 05:03 PM, said:

But the same won't be true about the bidding unless hrothgar can arrange it in advance.

I don't doubt that Richard can arrange that, but are you sure that I don't have Moscito experts on my list with 181 commentators from all over the world?

Roland

[Blofeld]

If it's run as a team match, can one silence kibitzers at the moment?

I thought that disabling kibitzer chat merely prevented them from talking to the players ; talking to other kibitzers would still work. At any rate my vote would be to allow people to talk.

I'd love to see this match.

[Walddk]

Blofeld, on Feb 14 2006, 05:10 PM, said:

If it's run as a team match, can one silence kibitzers at the moment?

Yes, but as I said above, it takes some complicated programming (Uday knows much more about this than me).

Roland

[hrothgar]

Elianna, on Feb 14 2006, 06:36 PM, said:

To me, the main benefit of commentators in vugraph is that (hopefully!) they will have system notes and be able to explain the bidding.

In these proposed matches, I'm assuming that people will have FD loaded, or at the very least be alerting, and so my desire for commentators is nonexistant.

In fact, I vote for closing table chat, and if people want to talk they can private chat with each other.

I may be the only one that feels this way, and if so, I already am set: I have most of the people who like expounding at WC tables clubbed already!

Personally, I agree with Elianna. Moreover, I already talked to Paul about trying to make sure that the MOSCITO pairs have Full Disclosure files documenting their methods. I suspect that I might be the one required to document the system, but I do hope that we are able to provide this.

Even so, I think that its useful to differentiate between the information provided by Full Disclosure and the types of details that a commentator should be able to provide. For example:

Assume that partner has just opened in a major. You hold a game forcing hand with 4+ card support. You have the option of chosing either a convention Jacoby 2NT type raise OR to start a relay sequence. MOSCITO recommends starting with the 2NT raise since there is too great a chance that the opponent will intervene during the relay (leaving you poorly positioned)

I'd be shocked if the audience were able to extract this from a convention card...

[Walddk]

hrothgar, on Feb 14 2006, 05:17 PM, said:

Elianna, on Feb 14 2006, 06:36 PM, said:

To me, the main benefit of commentators in vugraph is that (hopefully!) they will have system notes and be able to explain the bidding.
In these proposed matches, I'm assuming that people will have FD loaded, or at the very least be alerting, and so my desire for commentators is nonexistant.

In fact, I vote for closing table chat, and if people want to talk they can private chat with each other.

I may be the only one that feels this way, and if so, I already am set:  I have most of the people who like expounding at WC tables clubbed already! 

Personally, I agree with Elianna.

I can't say I'm surprised that Richard feels this way, but I think it's very inconsiderate to the hundreds of specs who will attend. Well fine, they will be able to follow the auction by virtue of FD, but let me ask again: what about play and defence?

The auction is only half of the hand, isn't it? Don't you think that the majority of spectators would feel somewhat lost if for example non routine play and defence were not explained to them by expert commentators?

I know this is the case, and unlike many others I know what the audience wants after 3 years as a vugraph coordinator.

Roland

[hrothgar]

>> Personally, I agree with Elianna.

>I can't say I'm surprised that Richard feels this way, but I think it's very
>inconsiderate to the hundreds of specs who will attend. Well fine, they will be
>able to follow the auction by virtue of FD, but let me ask again: what about
>play and defence?

Did you bother to read the rest of what I wrote where I specifically said that commentators would be needed in addition to FD?

>I know this is the case, and unlike many others I know what the audience wants
>after 3 years as a vugraph coordinator.

And this gives you the excuse not to pay attention to what other people are saying

[Walddk]

hrothgar, on Feb 14 2006, 05:35 PM, said:

>> Personally, I agree with Elianna.

>I can't say I'm surprised that Richard feels this way, but I think it's very
>inconsiderate to the hundreds of specs who will attend. Well fine, they will be
>able to follow the auction by virtue of FD, but let me ask again: what about
>play and defence?

Did you bother to read the rest of what I wrote where I specifically said that commentators would be needed in addition to FD?

>I know this is the case, and unlike many others I know what the audience wants
>after 3 years as a vugraph coordinator.

And this gives you the excuse not to pay attention to what other people are saying

Oh yes, I did it indeed read it, but you did not mention play and defence with one word. The only reason you would want commentators is to further explain the bidding. Why this and why not that, and so on.

My direct question was: what about play and defence? Did you answer that question anywhere? No!

Roland

[Sigi_BC84]

Walddk, on Feb 14 2006, 05:38 PM, said:

Oh yes, I did it indeed read it, but you did not mention play and defence with one word. The only reason you would want commentators is to further explain the bidding. Why this and why not that, and so on.

My direct question was: what about play and defence? Did you answer that question anywhere? No!

No one doubts that comments on the play and defence are valuable and that people want them. I guess Richard didn't deem it necessary to reconfirm that.

Let's keep in mind that the main motivation for holding this match is the exposition of a bidding system, not showing off the card wizardry of some top stars.

So indeed it will be of paramount importance that some top experts on Moscito and relay methods in general will be commenting on the following:

• what do the bids mean?
  
• why did the player choose (not) to relay?
  
• what could happen if he did relay now (i.e. lead directing doubles, preemption etc.)
  
• which inferences are/would be given to the oppos?
  
• relay specific issues, i.e. right/wrongsiding of the contract etc.

Of course there will be commentary on the actual play of the hands as well, but this goes without saying anyway, doesn't it?

Edit: I know that Moscito is not mainly about relaying, but about having quick-in-quick-out auctions. There should be plenty of commentary on that as well, of course.

--Sigi

[Echognome]

I talked to one of my friends. There's a good chance we could get a Tarzan club team including Bauke Muller and Simon De Wijs along with another good pair (their teammates from the spring foursomes). I would be happy to help commentate. I mentioned that April would be the most likely time. Any chance a natural or other team could be arranged for that?

[Elianna]

Walddk, on Feb 14 2006, 07:41 AM, said:

Elianna, on Feb 14 2006, 04:36 PM, said:

In these proposed matches, I'm assuming that people will have FD loaded

Does the FD also tell you how to declare and defend? Maybe expert commentators could help with that. You may not need it but I bet that hundreds do and that they will appreciate it. Your approach seems somewhat selfish imo.

Roland

Well, if we are discussing what we'd personally prefer for these matches, I don't understand why stating what _I_ would want selfish. Selfish would be trying to IMPOSE my opinion if the majority disagreed. But stating a preference, even if it's contrary to what other people want, can't be considered selfish, it's STATING A PREFERENCE. In other words, people can really truly only have opinions on what's best for them. Vocalizing those opinions is just carrying out a method of finding the best for EVERYONE. If people don't state what they prefer ever, that's just an ugly situation.

Let's talk about the comments from about declaring and play from vugraph. The majority seem to be either: repeating what GIB says (and I'm not speculating, people say "GIB says..."), betting some number of cokes about something or other, discussing something completely unrelated to the play, or getting some analysis completely wrong (either by double dummying it, or even worse, making statements about a double dummy line of play that is WRONG!). I don't understand how any of these would be helping a beginner learn how to play.

What would help them MORE is to be able to ask questions of people ("Why did he do this and not that?") and get personal answers. And I find that many beginners, when kibbitzing pro tables, do that specifically. They ask a kibbitzer with a star, or someone that they have seen as a teacher otherwise, for help on what's going on.

[hrothgar]

OK... The MOSCITO faction has its team together

Paul Marston and Hugh Grosvenor
Josh Sher and Dan Neill

All 4 teams will be playing strong club, 4 card majors with transfer openings, and using symmetric relay... There will be some slight differences in the constructive response structures.

If there is interest, we can field a second team with "advanced" players and run a concurrent side match.

[joshs]

hrothgar, on Feb 15 2006, 09:54 AM, said:

OK... The MOSCITO faction has its team together

Paul Marston and Hugh Grosvenor
Josh Sher and Dan Neill

All 4 teams will be playing strong club, 4 card majors with transfer openings, and using symmetric relay... There will be some slight differences in the constructive response structures.

If there is interest, we can field a second team with "advanced" players and run a concurrent side match.

In advance of the match I will provide an overview of Dan and my Methods (TOSR) to the Opps and I can post it here also.

Go Team Moscito.

To give an idea of the main difference between Moscito and TOSR:

Moscito Opens 4 card majors with balanced hands, and raises almost always with 3 card support.
TOSR Opens 4 card majors only on unbalanced hands and rarely raises with 3 card support. We opt for 1N with balance/semi-balanced hands without 4 card support over which partner bids a 5 card suit (Rarely he might pass if he is 4441). TOSR is more likely to play in an 8 card fit than Moscito, and when we play a 7 card fit is usually a 5-2 fit. Moscito is more agressive and puts more pressure on the opps with the direct 3 card raise.

Moscito will show majors in natural order (with 5S and 4H they open 1H showing Spades) and show 4M 6minor hands in natural order (at least I think they do)

TOSR uses the following rigid priority order: BOTH minors (even with a major on the side), H, S, 1 minor. With a 5 card major and a balanced hand we have a choice what to do, but we usually show the major unless its very weak. This ordering is not ideal, but it keeps our relay structure easy.

Moscito plays constructive new suit bids, and has to pass the x-fer opener on some really bad hands (which can be very bad if red and the opps work out to pass).

TOSR just looks for safety and plays all new suits as non-forcing. Our good hands start with bidding partner's suit or making an ART good raise of partner's suit.

As you can tell, I am more of a chicken than Paul is.

Both systems opening bids are similar:
1D(hearts), 1H(Spades), 2C(6+ Clubs)
Moscito plays 1S as Diamonds and uses 2D for something else.
TOSR plays 1S as both minors and uses 2D(6+D)

[fred]

I have asked Jlall to play as my partner in this match and he has accepted.

I haven't spoke to him about this yet, but my preference would be to spend no more an 15 minutes or so discussing our system before the match.

My belief is that 2 strong players who think in similar ways about most aspects of bidding can be effective together without a lot of discussion or agreements.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[joker_gib]

Jlall, on Feb 15 2006, 04:05 PM, said:

Is Fred getting Brad for this? Could be interesting

No, Fred is getting Justin for this and it will be very interesting !

Good luck to you both !

Alain

PS : Hope this will take place in convenient european hours

[FrancesHinden]

So, when is this match?
Is there any time of day possible for eveybody?

[joshs]

FrancesHinden, on Feb 24 2006, 10:18 AM, said:

So, when is this match?
Is there any time of day possible for eveybody?

This is going to be the challenge, given time zone issues, and work schedules and all that....

[kfgauss]

Did this happen?