[han]

Sigi_BC84, on Feb 6 2006, 11:36 AM, said:

Gerben42, on Feb 2 2006, 02:43 PM, said:

Suit bids that do NOT work are those that show a known suit but are not natural (for example 1♥ promising ♠), and bids that do not show a known suit but exclude the suit bid (for example 2♦ Multi: either ♥ or ♠). These can easily be doubled to show "it's our hand".

I understand that non-forcing artificial bids put more pressure on the precision pair, since responder does not get a guaranteed second opportunity to make a call.

However, your argument cited would also work against popular (and working) anti-NT conventions (e.g. 2♣ = Ms or 2♦ = Multi). If they work against a strong NT, why shouldn't they (quite) equally apply against a strong club (which is quite often a strong NT opener anyway)?

E.g. if the bidding goes (1NT)-2♦*-(X), opener also knows that it's their hand, but we have got them out of their NT and disturbed their methods. Likewise against a strong club (we have disturbed their methods while odds were on that it was their hand anyway).

Curious,
Sigi

You are absolutely right, this does apply to conventions over 1NT. This is why many sensible people insist that (1NT)-2H and (1NT)-2S are natural, see for instance conventions like Meckwell, Lionel, modified Woolsey, modified Cappaletti, Meyerson, etc.

[cherdano]

Sigi_BC84, on Feb 6 2006, 06:36 PM, said:

Gerben42, on Feb 2 2006, 02:43 PM, said:

Suit bids that do NOT work are those that show a known suit but are not natural (for example 1♥ promising ♠), and bids that do not show a known suit but exclude the suit bid (for example 2♦ Multi: either ♥ or ♠). These can easily be doubled to show "it's our hand".

I understand that non-forcing artificial bids put more pressure on the precision pair, since responder does not get a guaranteed second opportunity to make a call.

However, your argument cited would also work against popular (and working) anti-NT conventions (e.g. 2♣ = Ms or 2♦ = Multi). If they work against a strong NT, why shouldn't they (quite) equally apply against a strong club (which is quite often a strong NT opener anyway)?

These two situations are not comparable. Over 1NT, opener's hand is well-defined, and responder usually can place the contract after a single question to opener. So it doesn't cost as much to give them additional bidding space. Whereas after 1♣ precision, opener's hand is of course wildly undefined, and every additional bidding space for opponent's is a big gain for them.

Same reason why you may preempt wildly over 1♣, while there is not as much incentive to do so over 1NT.

(I agree with Han that I like 2M over 1NT natural, but IMO the reason is more to enable partner to compete/lead, rather than to put opponent's under pressure.)

Arend

[kenrexford]

I cannot say whether this is good bridge or just funny. At times, funny is better.

Anyway, I had my old pet defense come up on three of four hands in a midnight swiss. The round involved six boards, but we only got through four. We won by about 30 IMP's.

The defense:

One-bids show either that suit (5+) or not that suit (4441-ish). Advancer can pass this. However, a raise shows ability to bid opne of the other three suits about the level of the raise but poor support if partner is one-suited. A new suit call shows preference for the other three suits and ability to raise the bid suit to this level. Jumps are possible. Notrump advances are undiscussed, and hence really fun.

Two-bids show two-suiters, bidding the cheapest one first. You should, ideally, be 44. With 4432, you can elect to treat this as a two-suiter OR you might bid the short suit to treat it as a three-suiter.

1NT shows 4333 pattern.

The results in the midnight game were tremendous. The opponents played in our suit at the four level, doubled us into game, played a partscore on a slam hand, and bid 3NT on the last, down four. The director was at the table. He kept a straight face at the table but could not elsewhere.

[han]

Although the 1NT opening is not similar to a 1C opening, the reasons for bidding a suit you have are the same:

1) You want to get your suit in immediately for competitive purposes. Suppose you play that 2D shows a major, and the bidding goes (1NT)-2D-(2NT*), where 2NT is lebensohl and they are intending to play 3C. You might miss your 6-4 fit by passing!

2) You don't want to give the opponents extra room to bid. Using the same example, the 2D call would allow the opponents to play negative doubles (pass followed by double) as well as penalty doubles (double followed by double).

3) You want to make sure that partner knows which suit to lead (not as important because you will most often be on lead).

4) You don't want to make a bid that *promises* a different suit as it would allow the opponents to cuebid.

[joshs]

Let me make some general comments about bidding over a strong club.
I have always joked that a strong club is the world best pre-empt. People go crazy over it and can't bid their games, and go for numbers against it. Yes, virginia, you can make game even though the opps opened 1C, especially with a good major suit fit. But the likelihood of being able to make game varies greatly with how light the 1C opener could be.

If you are playing against classical blue team or somethign like that with 18+ balanced, 17+ unbalanced. You will rarely have game. If they upgraded a distributional 16, you might have game, but its not that likely. When you play against a 15+ 1C opening, that might include: Axx xx xx AKQJxx (I would upgrade that to a 15+ 1C opener) I wouldn't be suprised if you can make 4 or 5 in a major, even with only an 8 card fit.

Consequently, when playing vs the lighter 1C openings:
a. have some way of bidding very good hands (some like x for this, others like pass and then bid later for this)
b. you can't bid on total crap, or at least some of your bids should promise certain values
c. you need to be able to have invitational sequences

I strongly recomend playing 1M overcalls as promising something and then playing:
a. 2N response as limit+ with 4 trumps (here a limit raise should be about 13 in support)
b. 1N as forcing or semi-forcing (only pass if you overcalled a 4 card suit). This will handle the good 3 card raises.

When the 1C is of the 17+ variety, don't worry about game, just try to put maximum pressure on them. ART methods over the stronger 1C systems, are fine (you choose you favorite, ideally you can bid both 1 and 2 suiters).

In terms of tactics, usually the best tactic vs a strong club is to get to the 2 level as fast as possible, and then stop, unless you are sure of a really good fit. So I highly recommend methods that let you bid directly at the 2 level as often as possible, while retaining some safety.

What I usually play is:
Pass then bid = a hand worth opening a strong club
x= clubs
1D,1H,1S=natural can have 2 level shape if 13-15ish
1N = Woolsey: 5 card minor and 4 card major, or 6D, about 6-12
2C=majors, about 6-12
2D=1 major, about 6-12
2M=5 M 4+ in m about 6-12

Note: the most dangerous of these bids (2M) are the natural ones, so hardest to penalize. The other bids allow them to make a value showing x and then x you later, so you need much more likelihood of finding an 8 card fit.

If you are VUL or their 1C bid is of the very light variety, you should tighten these ranges slightly (extra shape is always better than extra values).

Also if the opps play takeout x's or penalty x's rather then an omnibus "cards" x at the 2 level, you also need to tighten up these bids and have good suits....

Anyway, just some random thought.

Josh

[joshs]

Actually, After
(1C)-1M-P-?
If you are willing to restrict 1M to 5 card suits then
Here is an idea:
Say over 1H:
1S = natural, but not forcing
1N= clubs
2C= diamonds
2D= 3 card limit (11+ in support) or a 14+ balanced hand or a hand that is too strong to bid a non-forcing 1S (both are VERY rare)
2H = 3 cards wide ranging (3-10ish) OR 2 cards, no 5 card side suit, and about 11-13
2S=fit jump
2N=4 card limit +
3m=fit jump
3H= pre-empt

x-fering to a suit and then supporting partner shows a 5 card suit, 2 card support and 11-13 ish.

If you raised 2H on the good hand and a doubleton you will bid game if the overcaller bids again which only happens when the overcaller was too strong for an initial 2 level action (e.g. a hand worth about 13-15ish) and has extra shape.

When the opps open 1C there is very little reason to ever play in NT.

If you want to be able to overcall on strong 4 card suits, then you have to pass with the 11-13 balanced hand with 2 card support when partner overcalls 1M which isn't the end of the world, but you might miss game when partner has a 6 card suit and a hand too good for an initial 2 level bid. But then again, the strong club side might rescue you...

Anyway, some random thoughts, and this stuff only really matters over the light 1C openers...

Josh

[kenrexford]

In all seriousness, I agree with the concept that psychotic obstructionism is flawed. I now prefer the simple old-fashioned X for majors and NT for minors, with preemptive jump overcalls and natural calls, values double. I like Meckwell's idea of a strong major takeout but prefer a two-way 2NT (weak minors or strong majors).

[cherdano]

Jlall, on Feb 7 2006, 04:47 AM, said:

Hannie, on Feb 2 2006, 04:40 PM, said:

I like the following basis for a defensive convention to 1C:

1H =hearts.
1S =spades.
2C =clubs.
2D =diamonds.

Excellent system. I'll try to learn it.

Ask me for online lessons if you want to know more about it.

[Gerben42]

Quote

 
QUOTE (Hannie @ Feb 2 2006, 04:40 PM)
I like the following basis for a defensive convention to 1C:

1H =hearts.
1S =spades.
2C =clubs.
2D =diamonds.

Excellent system. I'll try to learn it.

Can you provide a written suggested defence against this kind of overcalls please?

[tseager44]

Look up Truscott defense,,,it is very good....as I use it against club bids. And thats because I also use precision club so have to know what its all about.

[DelfinoD]

You can make lot's of trouble using the strong pass Lambda defence:

x = ♥
1♦ = ♠
1♥ = 5+4+ ♣♥ or ♠♦
1♠ = 5+4+ ♣♠ or ♦♥
1nt = 5+4+♣♦ or ♥♠
2 suit = natural 6+

After 54 opening next bid is relay and responces are natural, show longer suit, 3 of a suit means 64 maximum, 4 of a suit means 74 and 2nt shows 5-5 any (3c asks for suit and strenght)

[Miron]

I add few more defences I know:

"Shortness"
x = (3+ card) support for all except ♣
1♦♥♠ = (3+ card) support for all except bid suit
1/2NT = 5+5+ any
2♣♦♥♠ = natural
or
2♣ = ♥♠
2♦ = 6+ major (multi)
2♥♠ = 5♥♠ & 4 minor

If you have 5422 you can bid this one of these dubletons as "shortness" or you can bid as 55.

"Shortness or length"
This is a variant of previous:
x = (3+ card) support for all except ♣ OR ♣
1♦♥♠ = (3+ card) support for all except bid suit OR bid suit
Other same.

[Miron]

And one from my friend:

"Tutti Frutti"
x = 4♥ & 4♠
1♦ = 4♠ & 5+ minor OR 5+♥
1♥ = 4♥ & 5+ minor OR 5+♠
1♠ = 5+minor
1NT = 5-4 minors

2♣ = 5♥ & 5♠
2♦ and further has the same meaning as on first level but it is longer (f.e. 2♥ = 5♥ & 5+ minor or 6+♥).

[whereagles]

Miron, if you allow me some free advice, let me tell you this. To defend a strong club is more a matter of following a correct strategy and exercising judgement than a matter of using convention x or y. Any convention will do, even the simplest one:

1♣ ..?
x = clubs
1y = suit y
2y = more cards in suit y
etc..

The point is to judge whether or not to bid, and how high. And for this you don't need any convention, and, interestingly enough, the HCP strenght doesn't matter much. It is technically correct to overcall, at love all,

1♣ 2♠

on as little as

♠ QJ9xx
♥ xxx
♦ x
♣ xxxx

or as much as

♠ KQTxxx
♥ Ax
♦ x
♣ AQxx

In the first case, pard will have some 13-14 hcp, but opps rate to have a game in hearts or NT. On the second case, pard will have 2-3 hcp and you can't have game on, so 2♠ is probably your side's correct contract.

The strategy against a strong club is thus to overcall frequently on 2nd seat and with wide range. As for pard, he should be very conservative raising. With a good hand, just pass and butt-in for the partscore later. This strategy is WAY more important than any convention used.

[Miron]

You're right. But IMHO there are also other important things.

I'm seeking for a convention which will:

• minimalize the risk of bad result (doubled)
  
• minimalize the information for opponents
  
• maximalize the destruction of opponents bidding (every overcall is good, but some are better)

The strategy with wide range is good. But if you simply overcall 1♠ when you have spades, you woun't have bad results, but you send a lot of information to opps and you also don't make much problems to opps (it is better then pass, but not for much). They know what you have.

I created this thread to find out what are the possibilities of overcalls over 1♣. I am glad for every info. So far I think that the best is to overcall as unclear as possible. With some shape so you woun't suffer playing doubled. The best is to overcall 1♠-2♦(2♥) as often as possible, with not completly clear distribution. Preserve x, 1♦♥ for weaker hands (very unclear hands for opps) and (2♥)2♠+ for hands, you don't mind playing doubled (rather 1-suiter, then 2-suiter; you send opps a lot of info, but they are on 3rd level). I'll go thru all posts again, but my idea so far is:
(2♥)2♠+ = 1-suiter
2NT = some good 2-suiter
1♠-2♦(2♥) = 2-suiters
x, 1♦♥ = 3-suiters (4-4-3-2 etc) maybe shortness or length
pass = weak (afraid to bid) or strong (will bid/double later)

Please feel free to comment this idea of overcalls agains 1♣.

[whereagles]

I understand you want to maximize your chances. My point is only that such maximization is secondary to following a correct strategy and exercising judgement. In other words, if you hold at love all, say

♠ KJTxxx
♥ Qxxxx
♦ x
♣ x

it doesn't matter much if you bid a natural 2♠ or a 2NT majors-or-minors overcall, as long as you do make some jump overcall.

Another example is this:

♠ JTxxx
♥ Qxxx
♦ QJ
♣ AQ

With this hand you're probably better off passing, regardless of being able to overcall a natural 1♠ or an artificial 1♦ for the majors.

[coyot]

But that's not the point of this thread .

Following a correct strategy and exercising judgement is a GENERAL rule that you should follow - and it is assumed here.

[whereagles]

coyot, on Mar 3 2006, 09:28 AM, said:

But that's not the point of this thread .

Following a correct strategy and exercising judgement is a GENERAL rule that you should follow - and it is assumed here.

I know. Just that sometimes people tend to lose more time discussing (useless) gadgets than strategy (an immensely more valuable concept).

[suokko]

over 1♣(1♠) it is possible to be only step+1 if using relays.


pass GF relay (1♦ if no interference),
dbl negative (1♥ if no interference),
1NT bid is 1♠


after pass:
dbl is 1♥ bid
1NT is 1♠

But our negative response system is destroyed there but it is small sacrafice