[Sonny S]

Scoring: IMP

---

Can you bid this hand all the way to 7♦? How do you bid the hand?

In Moscito with controls ask and DCB the bidding could be (should be?):

W        E
1♦     1♥
1♠    1N
2♦    2♥
2N    3♣
3♥    3♠
4♦    4♥
4N    5♣
5♦    5♥
5N    6♣
6♦    6♥
?
6♠ = No, I don't have the ♦T
6N = Yes, I have the ♦T


I translate the bidding:
1♦=4+♥, 9-14
1♥=Relay (GIR)
1♠=4♠
1N=Relay (GFR)
2♦=4-5♦
2♥=Relay
2N=4450 shape
3♣=Controls ask (A=2 and K=1)
3♥=3 ctr.
3♠= DBC, Scan starter
4♦=A or K in ♦ and A or K in ♠, no A or K in ♥
4♥=Scan further
4N=Two tophonors in ♦, not two tophonors in ♠
5♣=Scan further
5♦=No ♥Q
5♥=Scan further
5N=♦J but no ♠J
6♣=Scan further
6♦=No ♥J
6♥=Scan further
?
6♠= No ♦T
6N= ♦T
Whow!!

E can distinguish between Kxxx, xxxx, AQJxx, - and Kxxx, xxxx, AQJTx, -
Not that it matters much here, but very impressive.

[Echognome]

To bid to 7♦ takes quite some creative thinking in the bidding as you also have to foresee the play while bidding.

Anyway, in Tarzan it's

1♦ (11-15) - 1NT ®
3♦ (4=4=5=0)* - 3♥ ®
3NT (3 ctrls) - 4♣ ®
4♠ (♦A/K, ♠A/K, no ♥A/K/Q) - 4NT ®
5♦(♦AK, AQ, or KQ, no 2nd ♠H) - 5♥ ®
5♠(no ♥J) - 5NT ®
6♦(♦J no ♠J) - ?

*This is actually showing a 3=3=5=2 which is impossible as those shapes in the appropriate range are opened 1NT systemically.

So you know opener is:

♠Kxxx
♥xxxx
♦AQJxx
♣---

We don't scan for Ts. So you get to place the contract from here.

Also, after hearing no 2nd spade honour, you might end up just placing the contract in 6♠. You have to really think 7♦ is a viable shot to continue relaying.

[luke warm]

i don't think i'm clever enough to bid 7d, so i congratulate any who do bid it... my bidding is similar to matt's

1s : 1nt (1 suited, 2 suited, or 3 suited with short clubs : game force)
2h : 2s (short clubs : relay)
3c : 3d (4450 : relay)
3s : 4c (3 controls : scan cause i need to know about ♠Q)
4h : 4s (top spade, no heart : scan)
5c : 6s (top diamond, nothing else in spades : placing)

[Sigi_BC84]

Opps have 11 clubs including QJ between them, so depending on how those are distributed and how aggressive opps are, you won't have much relaying on this board in real life I guess :-).
--Sigi

[FrancesHinden]

I'm 99% certain I'd end in 6S.

[luke warm]

Sigi_BC84, on Mar 3 2006, 09:34 AM, said:

Opps have 11 clubs including QJ between them, so depending on how those are distributed and how aggressive opps are, you won't have much relaying on this board in real life I guess :-).
--Sigi

probably so... after a limited bid (1s is 11-15), i play nfb, so any good hand by responder would start with a double.. in any case, it's hard to know which opp would interfere, and the original problem was not given assuming interference

[Free]

I'd end in 6♠, simply because I don't want to go down in 7♠ because trumps split 3-1... Grand in ♦ is a lot better, but still I don't think I'd go for it.

[Sigi_BC84]

luke warm, on Mar 3 2006, 03:50 PM, said:

probably so... after a limited bid (1s is 11-15), i play nfb, so any good hand by responder would start with a double.. in any case, it's hard to know which opp would interfere, and the original problem was not given assuming interference

I don't really like "problem" hands like this one where you would hardly expect an uncontested auction in reality. Of course it's nice to see how well it would all work out with symmetric relay and slam tools and all, but outside from practicing relays I wouldn't consider such hands.

That's why I think you shouldn't give such a problem without assuming interference. Go find that 5-2♦ grand slam with (2♣)-(3♣) interference from opps...

--Sigi

[akhare]

You must be a real optimist to consider bidding 7♦ -- maybe so at MPs -- but I am settling for 6♠ at IMPs...

Atul

[csdenmark]

Sonny S, on Mar 3 2006, 03:43 PM, said:

Dealer: West Vul: Both Scoring: IMP

♠ K842 ♥ 8753 ♦ AQJ84 ♣   ♠ A9753 ♥ AK96 ♦ K6 ♣ AK

In Icelandic Precision it will be 6♠ this way:

1♦(10-15HcP,5+cards minor or 4441,any short) -1NT(UPH: GF-relay)
3♥(4♠+0♣) - 3♠(Relay)
3NT(4-4-5-0) - 4♣(CAB)
4♠(3 CTRL) - 6♠(Signoff)


Regarding interference: Icelandic bid in steps to the end over interference.

[mike777]

Rats I guess looking at all these posts I am not allowed to pass the west hand in first seat.

Too bad this start is not allowed.

p=2c
3d=etc.....

[inquiry]

Sonny S, on Mar 3 2006, 08:43 AM, said:

Dealer: West Vul: Both Scoring: IMP

♠ K842 ♥ 8753 ♦ AQJ84 ♣   ♠ A9753 ♥ AK96 ♦ K6 ♣ AK

1♦ - 1♠
3♠ - 3NT!
4♣! - 4♦!
4♥! - 4NT!
5NT! - 6♥!
6♠ - 7♦
Pass

This will be idealized...

• 1♦ - natural, nonforcing (yes this is the non-natural system thread)
  
• 1♠ - natural forcing (what more natural)
  
• 3♠ - 30 to 32 Zar points four card support (2NT is stronger ♠ raise)
  
• 3NT - Serious slam try
  
• 4♣ - first or second round ♣ control *
  
• 4♦ - first ir second round ♦ control (not stiff or void in partners suit)
  
• 4♥ - Last Train, I can count 5!D tricks with the 4♦ cue-bid, last train neither denies nor promises a ♥ stopper, but shows a hand willing to try for slam (in light of the ♦ king in partners hand.
  
• 4NT - over 4♥ east knows that when he bids 4NT (kantar rkc) his partner will bid 6♣ (1 or 3 keycards, club void) or 5NT (2 keycards, "unknown void"). 4NT however does promise a heart control here or 5NT Lackwood would be used.
  
• 5NT - two keycards and an "unknown void"
  
• 6♥ - jospehine. 6♣ would ask for void, and responder knows the response will be 6♠ to show ♣ void. And 6♦ might be misunderstood as option to play ♦'s. 6♥ can not be natural and must be looking for the missing ♠Queen
  
• 6♠ - I don't have the ♠ queen
  
• 7♦ - pass is also an option, but here, 7♦ is clearly possible option, see logic below

Why 7♦ on Kx in a suit partner never rebid?

Partner has ♣ void, clear. So ♦ is his longest suit, minimum of five. Partner showed 30 to 32 Zar points with his 3♠ bid, and his 4♥ last train showed the diamond cue-bid improved his very narrowly defined hand for the 3♠ bid. He would not be excited about about his hand if he had something like S-Kxxx H-QJxx D-Axxxx C-void even after the 4♦ cue and he would return to 4♠ and probably would have with Kxxx QJxx AQxxx void as well. So the 4♦ had to solify his suit as a source of tricks. If he had has AQxxx in diamonds, you will need !Ds to split or partner to have the !DT as well, but odds are he will be 4-3-6-0 with AQ or 4450 with AQJxx.

But seriously, probably just play 6♠ like everyone else.

[Gerben42]

Fantunes starts with:

2♦ (10 - 13, 5+♦)
- 2♠ (F1R, 4+♠)
4♣ (Splinter)
- 4♦ (Ace or King, NOT single)
Now continue as Inquiry

[csdenmark]

mike777, on Mar 3 2006, 09:09 PM, said:

Rats I guess looking at all these posts I am not allowed to pass the west hand in first seat.

Too  bad this start is not allowed.

p=2c
3d=etc.....

You certainly are. Here an example from Quadri Livorno(Leghorn Diamond)

Pass in West as opening requirements are 11+cP, 6 losers. I count 7 losers here.

Starting with EAST

1♦(19+HcP, any dist) - 2♦(3 CTRL)
2♠(ASK spade support) - 3♠(Honor – 4 cards)
4♥(ASK heart support) - 5♣(4 small cards)
either: 5♠(Raise with MAX) - 6♠(Signoff)
or......: 6♠=Signoff

Leghorn diamond
Ask support

STEPS

1. Singleton or void
2. 2-3 small cards
3. 4 small cards
4. Stiff honor(A,K,Q)
5. Honor – 2-3 cards
6. Honor – 4 cards
7. 2 Honors – 2-3cards
8. 2 Honors – 4 cards

A response more than 8 Steps is break out showing a self-sufficient suit

Rebid same suit, NT or game=Natural continue

A new suit is repeat ASK with same scale

[Gerben42]

Playing 2/1 I would pass the left hand, but you said favorite system

Playing 2-over-something I bid

Pass - 1♠
3♦ Fit jump

NOW you are well placed!

[awm]

In Sam and my methods, the west hand is a borderline opener. I'd probably bid because of the good five-card suit and potential for game in both majors. The auction proceeds:

1♦(1) - 1♠
2NT(2) - 3♣(3)
3♠(4) - 4♣(5)
4♠(6) - 5♦(7)
5♠(8) - 6♣(9)
6♥(10) - 7♦(11)

(1) 11-15 hcp (normally) no 5cM, no 6cm
(2) 4♠+a side void
(3) Relay, inv+
(4) 4450 exactly with minimum values (11-13)
(5) 1430 keycard for ♠
(6) two keycards for ♠, no ♠Q
(7) Relay; not interested in either red suit king
(8) ♦Q but no ♥Q
(9) Relay, not interested in ♠J
(10) ♦J but no ♥J
(11) To play; 6NT and above are never relays

Of course, this requires some imagination on the part of responder, but all the necessary information is there. After the 2NT bid we're pretty much going to slam (32-33 high with a nine card spade fit should make six of something) and none of the asking bids risk bypassing six spades.

If west had chosen to start with a pass:

Pass - 1♣(1)
1♥(2) - 1♠(3)
3♦(4) - 3♥(5)
4♦(6) - 4♥(7)
4NT(8) - 5♣(9)
5♦(10) - 5♥(11)
5NT(12) - 7♦(13)

(1) 16+ hcp any shape except a balanced 16
(2) 5+ hcp, 2-6 AKQ points, either 4+♠ or a balanced non-GF
(3) Relay, either GF or a 5cM (or both)
(4) 4450 shape
(5) Relay for number of AKQ points
(6) 6AKQ points with an even number of top diamonds
(7) Relay
(8) An odd number of top spades, even number of top hearts
(9) Relay
(10) The ♠K (even number of AKQ points in 1st-scan one-honor suit)
(11) Relay for jacks
(12) ♦J but no ♠J
(13) to play

[Sonny S]

Ok, ok. Maybe opps preempt with 3♣ and again maybe then don't.

The bidding problem is interesting and extreme because E must have a very good imagination. If we shoot for the grand, we won't play it in our 5-4 fit. Our 4-4 fit is even worse. We would like to play the grand in a 5-2 fit.

And how often do you see a bidding sequence where responder can scan for Ts? This is the first I have seen.

I admit the problem is maybe silly, but I find the problem charming in its own way.

[joshs]

awm, on Mar 3 2006, 04:07 PM, said:

In Sam and my methods, the west hand is a borderline opener. I'd probably bid because of the good five-card suit and potential for game in both majors. The auction proceeds:

1♦(1) - 1♠
2NT(2) - 3♣(3)
3♠(4) - 4♣(5)
4♠(6) - 5♦(7)
5♠(8) - 6♣(9)
6♥(10) - 7♦(11)

(1) 11-15 hcp (normally) no 5cM, no 6cm
(2) 4♠+a side void
(3) Relay, inv+
(4) 4450 exactly with minimum values (11-13)
(5) 1430 keycard for ♠
(6) two keycards for ♠, no ♠Q
(7) Relay; not interested in either red suit king
(8) ♦Q but no ♥Q
(9) Relay, not interested in ♠J
(10) ♦J but no ♥J
(11) To play; 6NT and above are never relays

Of course, this requires some imagination on the part of responder, but all the necessary information is there. After the 2NT bid we're pretty much going to slam (32-33 high with a nine card spade fit should make six of something) and none of the asking bids risk bypassing six spades.

If west had chosen to start with a pass:

Pass - 1♣(1)
1♥(2) - 1♠(3)
3♦(4) - 3♥(5)
4♦(6) - 4♥(7)
4NT(8) - 5♣(9)
5♦(10) - 5♥(11)
5NT(12) - 7♦(13)

(1) 16+ hcp any shape except a balanced 16
(2) 5+ hcp, 2-6 AKQ points, either 4+♠ or a balanced non-GF
(3) Relay, either GF or a 5cM (or both)
(4) 4450 shape
(5) Relay for number of AKQ points
(6) 6AKQ points with an even number of top diamonds
(7) Relay
(8) An odd number of top spades, even number of top hearts
(9) Relay
(10) The ♠K (even number of AKQ points in 1st-scan one-honor suit)
(11) Relay for jacks
(12) ♦J but no ♠J
(13) to play

Victory for a cheap rkc bid and spiral scan! Warms my heart.

[luke warm]

Sigi_BC84, on Mar 3 2006, 12:39 PM, said:

luke warm, on Mar 3 2006, 03:50 PM, said:

probably so... after a limited bid (1s is 11-15), i play nfb, so any good hand by responder would start with a double.. in any case, it's hard to know which opp would interfere, and the original problem was not given assuming interference

I don't really like "problem" hands like this one where you would hardly expect an uncontested auction in reality. Of course it's nice to see how well it would all work out with symmetric relay and slam tools and all, but outside from practicing relays I wouldn't consider such hands.

That's why I think you shouldn't give such a problem without assuming interference. Go find that 5-2♦ grand slam with (2♣)-(3♣) interference from opps...

--Sigi

sigi, i'm not arguing with you about the potential interference this hand, i'm sure you're right... but do you really think responder won't bid 6S, with 9 controls and 5 card support? the only real problem i see is responder *stopping* in 6 when 7 is right