[Flame]

standard is 12 hcp or rule of 20. more then 90% of the people i know use it.

[mike777]

Flame, on Jan 12 2006, 06:44 PM, said:

standard is 12 hcp or rule of 20. more then 90% of the people i know use it.

This is not standard and not played by 99.9% of players, that is the point . Enjoy!
This is Barry Crane style.
If you hate his style, as many do, great, but he could win with it and he opened this stuff all the time.

[luke warm]

i'd never open that hand, normally... i'd love to open that hand playing mini nt

[Free]

No, it's a clear pass for me.

[cherdano]

When I play 14-16 1NT with 11-13 1NT rebid (which I frequently do), I prefer to open only good 11 counts. This isn't one for me, the major jacks are too much downside.

I think you were a bit unlucky too in that the hands just don't mesh well. Although responder's hand has some warning signs (bad honor location) I don't think I could bring myself to only an invite opposite 11-13. What do others think?

Arend

[FrancesHinden]

Echognome, on Jan 12 2006, 11:56 PM, said:

I thought it an interesting style question.  I held:

♠KQxx
♥A
♦Txxxx
♣Axx

in response I bid 1♦ and 2♠ (natural GF) over the 1NT rebid and we ended in the no play 3NT.  If I imagined partner would open the actual hand, I have to invite on this.

I hate opening balanced 11 counts vulnerable, and found that my bidding improved when I didn't.  I wasn't out to "blame" partner, just wondered what people considered to be standard.  I didn't think it a 1♣ opener.

I don't understand what you are getting at with this hand.

Virtually everyone (me included) says they wouldn't open it in their style.

But in your post you tell us that your style is to open 11-counts, and play a 1NT rebid as 11-13 balanced. That isn't standard.

Now you say you hate opening balanced 11-counts vulnerable. Well, so do I. I pass the occasional 12-count as well. But I don't play an 11-13 rebid. It sounds as if you and your partner simply need to agree on your system!

[Flame]

mike777, on Jan 12 2006, 06:46 PM, said:

Flame, on Jan 12 2006, 06:44 PM, said:

standard is 12 hcp or rule of 20. more then 90% of the people i know use it.

This is not standard and not played by 99.9% of players, that is the point . Enjoy!
This is Barry Crane style.
If you hate his style, as many do, great, but he could win with it and he opened this stuff all the time.

Well if you say so.
I guess your 99% and my 90% never met.

[Echognome]

FrancesHinden, on Jan 13 2006, 09:48 AM, said:

Now you say you hate opening balanced 11-counts vulnerable. Well, so do I. I pass the occasional 12-count as well. But I don't play an 11-13 rebid. It sounds as if you and your partner simply need to agree on your system!

Would it help to understand the question if I mentioned this is a new partnership and we are bidding out hands to agree on a system?

So I'm openly airing out what the consequences are of playing a 14-16 NT has, which I thought relevant for those that play it and asking whether the adjustment is (1) which hands you will open or (2) how strong you need to be to GF.

[Gerben42]

Playing 14 - 16 NT vuln. as with my regular junior partner, this hand is a clear opening. And yes, 2/1 GF too (but not over 1♣ of course).

[Chamaco]

Echognome, on Jan 12 2006, 04:06 PM, said:

This is a pure style question.  A lot depends on the rest of your system of course.

Suppose you are playing a standardish 2/1 with a 14-16NT.  Your 1NT rebid thus shows 11-13.

Do you consider this to be an opener as dealer?

♠J98
♥J5
♦AQ6
♣QJT96

Under the given conditions, no.

I would NEVER open such a hand in 1st/2nd seat, no matter the vulnerability, unless the partnership style had agreed to open most normal 9-10 count.

In my opinion this hand is simply NOT an 11 count.
I think this hand qualifies closer to a 9-10 than to an 11 count (semiflat shape, lots of quacks etc etc).

[inquiry]

Echognome, on Jan 13 2006, 06:51 AM, said:

FrancesHinden, on Jan 13 2006, 09:48 AM, said:

Now you say you hate opening balanced 11-counts vulnerable. Well, so do I. I pass the occasional 12-count as well. But I don't play an 11-13 rebid.  It sounds as if you and your partner simply need to agree on your system!

Would it help to understand the question if I mentioned this is a new partnership and we are bidding out hands to agree on a system?

So I'm openly airing out what the consequences are of playing a 14-16 NT has, which I thought relevant for those that play it and asking whether the adjustment is (1) which hands you will open or (2) how strong you need to be to GF.

I play 14-16 1NT, and I often open with far less than 11 hcp, and my 1NT rebids show 11-13. So I fit EXACTLY the style of your original question.

However, as hannie will testify, I almost never open 12 hcp with 4333 distribution in 1st or 2nd seat (A few tens, Ace rich are exceptions, for instance, three aces I open), and I occassional downgrade 4333 with 14 and open a minor. I do open 11 hcp and 5332 hands but it needs about four controls to do so. This hand is too many quacks to be opened.

I don't think this is inconsitant. Just because you CAN open and rebid 1NT on 11 point hands doesn't mean you HAVE to....

[Echognome]

I agree with you Ben. I think just because you CAN open doesn't mean you must. I rate this hand closer to a 10 than 11 personally. The five card club suit is nice, but the rest of the hand stinks.

[Al_U_Card]

Funny how we all say that hcp don't make a hand and then we seem to get stuck on the hand evaluation because of the hcp........ You only need to be consistant in your evaluations so that pard gets used to what to expect for your "promised" values. As when I never open hands that don't make the rule of 20 in 1st or 2nd unless they have AK A.....discussion points with new pards

[cherdano]

Gerben42, on Jan 13 2006, 01:51 PM, said:

Playing 14 - 16 NT vuln. as with my regular junior partner, this hand is a clear opening. And yes, 2/1 GF too (but not over 1♣ of course).

So what would you do with responder's hand (GF or invite)?

[cherdano]

inquiry, on Jan 13 2006, 04:05 PM, said:

Echognome, on Jan 13 2006, 06:51 AM, said:

FrancesHinden, on Jan 13 2006, 09:48 AM, said:

Now you say you hate opening balanced 11-counts vulnerable. Well, so do I. I pass the occasional 12-count as well. But I don't play an 11-13 rebid.  It sounds as if you and your partner simply need to agree on your system!

Would it help to understand the question if I mentioned this is a new partnership and we are bidding out hands to agree on a system?

So I'm openly airing out what the consequences are of playing a 14-16 NT has, which I thought relevant for those that play it and asking whether the adjustment is (1) which hands you will open or (2) how strong you need to be to GF.

I play 14-16 1NT, and I often open with far less than 11 hcp, and my 1NT rebids show 11-13. So I fit EXACTLY the style of your original question.

However, as hannie will testify, I almost never open 12 hcp with 4333 distribution in 1st or 2nd seat (A few tens, Ace rich are exceptions, for instance, three aces I open), and I occassional downgrade 4333 with 14 and open a minor. I do open 11 hcp and 5332 hands but it needs about four controls to do so. This hand is too many quacks to be opened.

I don't think this is inconsitant. Just because you CAN open and rebid 1NT on 11 point hands doesn't mean you HAVE to....

I think if someone asked me to quickly describe your weak NT range including style, I would rather call it s.th. like (11)12/13 (including upgradable 11), or very good 11 to bad 14. With Hand I would think we play good 11 to 13 (and I would be quite surprised if he opened that hand). Echo's partner and Frances understood the style as 11-13, and Gerben plays that. Quite a difference, and important to play the same style as partner...

Arend

[inquiry]

cherdano, on Jan 13 2006, 12:14 PM, said:

inquiry, on Jan 13 2006, 04:05 PM, said:

I play 14-16 1NT, and I often open with far less than 11 hcp, and my 1NT rebids show 11-13. So I fit EXACTLY the style of your original question.

However, as hannie will testify, I almost never open 12 hcp with 4333 distribution in 1st or 2nd seat (A few tens, Ace rich are exceptions, for instance, three aces I open), and I occassional downgrade 4333 with 14 and open a minor. I do open 11 hcp and 5332 hands but it needs about four controls to do so. This hand is too many quacks to be opened.

I don't think this is inconsitant. Just because you CAN open and rebid 1NT on 11 point hands doesn't mean you HAVE to....

I think if someone asked me to quickly describe your weak NT range including style, I would rather call it s.th. like (11)12/13 (including upgradable 11), or very good 11 to bad 14. With Hand I would think we play good 11 to 13 (and I would be quite surprised if he opened that hand). Echo's partner and Frances understood the style as 11-13, and Gerben plays that. Quite a difference, and important to play the same style as partner...

Well, I am not sure I will agree with your description of my "weak notrump" style. For one thing, I DONT OPEN A WEAK NOTRUMP, so I guess you are referring to the 1NT rebid. Be careful describing my bidding, because for me, 1C-1D-1NT shows 17-19 only after partner bids 1M does my 1NT bid tend to show less than 14 hcp.

But the point is I am not fond of balanced hands, so I down-grade on a lot of different auctions. I open distributional hands very light, so for this discusion I am only talking about balanced hands (5332, 4432 and 4333). I will open virtually all 13 hcp hands, almost all 14 point hands are opened 1NT. That is, my opening 1NT doesn't show a "good 14 hcp". So while it is true I will downgrade a 4333 with 14 hcp sometimes, this is more rare than you comments might suggest. A lot of other factors go into the choice to "underbid".

Also I do open a fair number of 11 hcp with 4432 and 5332 hands, expecially when holding four spades or when holding four controls (two aces or one ace and two kings). It is a balanced hand made up of queens and jacks, especially isolated queens and jacks, that keep me from bidding. This example hand fully fits the bill.

I also have experience playing a version of precision where our agreement was to open all 11 hcp hands. I would pass this hand even playing that. Primarily because this doesn't look like 11 to me... :-)

[hrothgar]

Silly comment here (potentially redundant, but I always like to hear myself talk)

The core issue would appear to be that all "High Card Points" are not created equal: It might be usefulto differentiate between canonical High Card Points which are strickly judged using the A=4, K=3, Q=2, J =1 Scale and "HCPs". "HCPs" is a somewhat subjection assessment of hand strength which bears some resemblence to High Card Points.

The main difference of opinion in this discussion would appear to diferent assumptions about what 11-13 HCPs actually means.

[mike777]

Well I tried to frame the discussion into 4 parts:
1) Partner's expectations
2) Quick tricks
3) spot cards
4) suit quality

[mghmaine]

You said in introduction that it was a pure style question. It is not my style to open balanced 11s unless playing 10-12 NT.

However, if you have decided to play some system where the 1NT rebid shows 11-13 balanced, then this indeed is a balanced 11, not the worst one I've seeen, and you'll be opening in a good 5-carder.

In other words, it sounds consistent with your style to open it.

[Kalvan14]

Agreed. It would be inconsistent to play a 1N rebid showing 11-13 and not open this hand. The 5-card suit and its texture compensate the presence of the 2 Js (which in any case pull some weight in NT).