[Al_U_Card]

Jlall, on Jan 9 2006, 11:08 AM, said:

north owes south a courtesy raise with this hand.

This hand is the poster-boy for courtesy raises. A must at any time or form of scoring. Even if pard is dead minimum, 3H has to be reasonably easy to make and your raise covers any other good hand that he might have.

[Winstonm]

When this occurred at the table I held the South hand. Partner and I have discussed the jump shift in this auction and by our agreements this hand did not qualify - though it is close - and I have no real objection to those who would jump shift with this hand. I think Justin is right it is a matter of style verses right or wrong.

Partner did well to raise to 3H and at this point I envisioned a potential slam but had no clear cut way to move onward - 4D shape is a good choice but leaves no room for partner whereas 4C leaves a spot for a 4D Last Train type bid.

I chose 4C (without conviction) and partner, thinking he had done his all, signed off in 4H and I didn't see a reason to press on and passed.

Tough choices - tough hand.

Winston

[mike777]

Winstonm, on Jan 9 2006, 12:18 PM, said:

When this occurred at the table I held the South hand.  Partner and I have discussed the jump shift in this auction and by our agreements this hand did not qualify - though it is close - and I have no real objection to those who would jump shift with this hand.  I think Justin is right it is a matter of style verses right or wrong.

Partner did well to raise to 3H and at this point I envisioned a potential slam but had no clear cut way to move onward - 4D shape is a good choice but leaves no room for partner whereas 4C leaves a spot for a 4D Last Train type bid. 

I chose 4C (without conviction) and partner, thinking he had done his all, signed off in 4H and I didn't see a reason to press on and passed.

Tough choices - tough hand.

Winston

Are some rare and very complicated conventions more hurtful than helpful?

Great issue of Last Train and many other super expert conventions. Here is a hand you hoped partner would bid Last Train with if she had the correct hand. That prevented you from bidding 4d rather than 4c. In fact you do make 6 on this hand but she felt Last Train was not best with this hand.

It seems here is an example of having a convention that hurt you. You could not bid 4d as that would rob partner of a last train bid. I have never played Last Train but only ask if you guys keep a scorecard of how helpful these complicated things are?

[Chamaco]

mike777, on Jan 9 2006, 05:29 PM, said:

Are some rare and very complicated conventions more hurtful than helpful?

.........

It seems here is an example of having a convention that hurt you. You could not bid 4d as that would rob partner of a last train bid. I have never played Last Train but only ask if you guys keep a scorecard of how helpful these complicated things are?

Last Train should be used in conjunction with Serious 3NT.

Here, with slam potential on, the bid is 3NT (although it is odd to try for slam when both hands have been limited, one by a nonforcing 2H, the other by 1NT and the single raise of H; the auction wd have been more logical after a jump to 3H by opener, another plug yadadada ).

So, I would not blame the insuccess to the adoption of LTTC, but rather on a misapplication.

[mike777]

"So, I would not blame the insuccess to the adoption of LTTC, but rather on a misapplication."

Well alot of these conventions/cuebids/pass and bids are misapplied even at the world class levels.

Reminds of me FLipFlop. I keep forgetting we play this thing. I put down dummy the other night and my mild mannered partner growls, about time you remember what we play partner .

[foo]

Winstonm, on Jan 8 2006, 10:20 AM, said:

Scoring: IMP

S W N E
1♠ p 1NT p
2♥ p ?????

---

After this slow start, can you catch up and bid the slam? System is 2/1 and 1N is forcing.

IMHO 2H is more of an underbid than 3H is an overbid so I would've rebid 3H as Opener. ...and shrugged philosophically if it did not work out. For all we try, bidding is not and never will be an exact science.

Our saving grace on this board is that QT.A853.Q72.9632 is an invitational hand that gets much better after 1S-1N;2H-??

3H by responder should be automatic.

Now Opener has to do something noteworthy to take their hand from below the bottom of the box they have shown to the middle of the actual box their hand is now in. (This BTW, is why I think Jeff Reubens would rebid 3H as Opener in the first place)

Exclusion RKC is perfect.

5C intending to drive to 6H if responder tries to sign off in 5H is not unreasonable given that Responder has shown invitational values and we have 9+H between us.

Even (*shudder*) 4N 1430 is worth the risk since the odds of C waste are fairly low and the odds of PD having a S card for us are reasonable given the auction.

[Kalvan14]

Opener's 1st rebid is much trickier than it appears.
3♥ is GF, but does not guarantees 5 cards: on the (more than likely) 3NT by pard (on an average/+ hand, mind: say Qx xx Qxx KJTxx), I'd expect that anyone will rebid 4♥. Now both 4♥ and 4♠ are not a very nice contract.

1♠-1N-2♥ can be up to 17-18 HCP; there is no reason that pard with Axxx in hearts and Hx in spades will refrain from raising your 2nd suit.

I am mostly convinced that slam is a bit too fancy (2 perfect hands matching), but it can be reached (if ever) with an auction like 1♠-1N-2♥-3♥-4♦[fragment], which makes clear to advancer that all of his cards are working.
If there is a JS at 2nd round, the bidding will certainly end up in 4♥.

As an aside, I do play both light openings and light 1st bids by advancer: this is ok, IMHO, provided that your assessment of losers and shape is reasonable. IMHO again, this means that:

• if opener wants to invoke a GF, he must have his bid (and 1S-1N-3H is a GF 100%)
  
• advancer cannot tailor all his bids on the assumption that opener has a shapely 10 count. The invitational bids are targetted for mid range
  
• if anyone is uncomfortable with this philosophy of life, I would submit that there is something which is wrong: the system (a strong club system is quite helpful in limiting opening bids) or the light opening bids or the light bid by advancer

[benlessard]

You want a weird relay system sequence here it is




1♥---1♠ relay??

my hand is number 9 but there is 7 bal hands so my hand is 16


2nt ----GF gamma(mod+2)-----3♣??




3nt ------(desc G14)


showing exact
5530 with better ♥ otherwise i would have opened 1♠

now 4♣ keyc ♥

5♦ 2+q+k♠+K♦ no Q♠

now partner know i have

kxxxx
kqxxx
akx

and a jump shift type of hand 18-22

so he knows iv got extra and the extra cant be jt♠ because i would have opened 1♠


so eithey i have jt of ♥ or 3j

anyway hes got an easy 6♥ bid

if i opened 1♠

1♠-----1nt ?

2♦ ♥12-14 or 18-22 -2♥ Pref

now my hand is nuber 9 caus there is no balanced hand here...

3♠ (DESC F9) showing 5530 4h key♥ 3nt is

5♠ 2+Q+K♠+K♦ no ♠Q

easy 6♥


Ill post the GAMMA relay tommorow or wednesday so youll see how it works.

[Free]

With relay systems this hand is piece of cake... The question is how it's done with 2/1

[Echognome]

benlessard, on Jan 10 2006, 10:18 AM, said:

You want a weird relay system sequence  here it is
<snip>

Yes, a weird relay system indeed. I'm trying to understand (1) why a responder without a GF hand would relay and (2) why the weak hand is captain.

I play a variety of systems and this is one of those hands that happens to fit the relay system I play well. However, there are plenty of other hands which create difficulties for the relay bidders, especially when there is interference. It also happens to be the case that on this hand, responder's shape is resolved at the lowest possible level for shape resolution and our bidding would be:

1♣(1) - 1NT(2)
2♣® - 2NT(3)
3♣® - 3♦(4)
3♥® - 3NT(5)
4♣® - 4♠(6)
6♥ - Pass

® relay
(1) 16+ any shape
(2) Bal positive, 2+ controls
(3) 2=4=3=4 exactly
(4) Exactly 2 controls
(5) One of A,K,Q in ♥s; either A,K,Q in ♣s or no top honours in ♣s*
(6) One of A,K,Q in ♦s and ♠s; no second honour in ♥s

At this point, opener knows responder is ♠Qx ♥Axxx ♦Qxx ♣xxxx. He could relay for Js, but 6♥ is going to be where he's going to end up.

*Opener can actually deduce responder's hand after the 3NT bid. Responder has shown a positive response, exactly 2 controls, the ♥A and nothing in clubs. So perhaps a direct 6♥ bid after 3NT is appropriate.

Playing Riton or Gazzilli would certainly help the South hand's rebid. For the given problem, I would expect South to make a slam try after a courtesy raise in hearts, but cannot imagine North would accept.

[Chamaco]

Kalvan14, on Jan 10 2006, 12:19 AM, said:

[*]if anyone is uncomfortable with this philosophy of life, I would submit that there is something which is wrong: the system (a strong club system is quite helpful in limiting opening bids) or the light opening bids or the light bid by advancer

One might as well consider
♠ Q10
♥ A853
♦ Q72
♣ 9632

too light for an invitation, opposite a minimum 2H rebid: flat hand, only 6 hcp that are useful for sure.

Indeed, I know I sound like a broken record, but the "std" system shows his flaw, as there is no "in between" bid for opener to show a hand stronger than 2H but weaker than a 3H game force.

I agree that either a strong club or a Roth-Stone requirement for 1 level opening or a Gazzilli-like scheme would work better.

[000002]

displace ♥ 10 in ♠ suit, i advise 3♥ leap.

jump to 5♣ ? not security,4♣ is good enough

[benlessard]

our 1M opening is 12-14 or 18-22 and responder always relay (6pts+) unless he got a 55 or a 7 card suit himself.

so basically opener transfer in his second suit.

1H --1s?

-------------1nt------clubs
-------------2c------- Diamonds
-------------2d--------6h
-------------2h----------spades 12-14
-------------2s+ GAMMA (7 balanced hands 18+ 3532,3523,2533,3622,2632,2623,2722 + strong jumps shift with spades...


Over 1s---1nt?
2c-----diamond
2d-----hearts
2h----6spades
2s----clubs 12-14

2nt+ 7 bal hand +strong jump shift with clubs gamma style.




GAMMA RELAY

You need at least 8 step to be sure not to bust your safety zone.
Busting your safety zone means you can no longer stop at a good and safe game contract.

So ABCDEFGH are your 8 steps availables

There is 3 relay
GAMMA A
GAMMA B
GAMMA C

That make 4 MOD (for modificator)

A=+1
B=+2
C=+3
AC=+4

You have 5(6) DESC (for descriptives)


GAMMA D
GAMMA E
GAMMA F
GAMMA H
GAMMA G
(GAMMA I)
The value of the DESC are

D= 1
E= 4
F= 9
G= 14
H= 19 RARE
(I= 24 VERY RARE)


When we bid a DESC our EXACT shape will be known there is no exception to this rule.

Here are the hands in probability order and in fragment numerical (so 5431 come before 5413 because 31 is higher then 13)


D ----- 1 ----- 6331 ----- 5422
AD ----- 2 ----- 6313 ----- 5431
BD ----- 3 ----- 6133 ----- 5413
E ----- 4 ----- 7321 ----- 5440*
AE ----- 5 ----- 7312 ----- 5521
BE ----- 6 ----- 7231 ----- 5512
CE ----- 7 ----- 7213 ----- 6421
ACE----- 8 ----- 7132 ----- 6412
F ----- 9 ----- 7123 ----- 5530
AF ----- 10 ----- 7330 ----- 5503
BF ----- 11 ----- 7303 ----- 6430
CF ----- 12 ----- 7033 ----- 6403
ACF----- 13 ----- 8221 ----- 6511
G ----- 14 ----- 8212 ----- 6520
AG ----- 15 ----- 8122 ----- 6502
BG ----- 16 ----- 8311 ----- 7411
CG ----- 17 ----- 8320 ----- 7420
ACG----- 18 ----- 8302 ----- 7402
H 19 8230 6511
AH 20 8203 6520
BH 21 8032 6502
CH 22 8023 6610
ACH 23 9211 6601
I 24 9121 7510
AI 25 9112 7501
BI 26 9XX0 8410
CI 27 9X0X 8401
ACI 28 90XX 7600


so if you have a 2830 worth 17 pts

bidding will go

1c----1d? we pass by 1c to show 15-17 or GF hands
1h----1s?
2d (6h)---2s? (2h would be to play facing 15-17)

our hand is number 21 (there is a mistake in the chart p)

so we have to combined a mod and a desc

modb (+2)
desc H

3c (--------3d ?
4d (H) showing exact 2830 worth 15-17




This is not the official document so maybe mistake are in it. like its missing some 8311 .

but the idea is there

at first it may seems tough to remeber the chart but its fairly easy...

there is some memo tricks in the good chart

18= 81,
20= ,02
23 ??, 32
10 5503,7330
4 5440 7321

the chart has 2 column 1 for 2suiter and 1 for one suiter

Since its easier to have 55 always in the realy then to remove them when we open 1h

with 55 in majors we open 1h if the h are much better.

This is not very acbl legal (only in national and match of at least 12 board VS 1 opp) cauz its relaying without a GF hand.


if interested in trying the system

benoitlessard@hotmail.com




PS
Also IMHO..its an easy jump shift.. kqjtx and ak is suit concentration

would you open 1nt 15-17 or open 1d followed by a 2nt or 3M rebid ?

kxx
akx
KQJTx
xx


IMHO its a close call


but 5530 is much better then 3352 shapes

even without the hearts T i would prefer 3h to 2h even if we are agressive with our courtesy raise.

[Fluffy]

kenrexford, on Jan 9 2006, 04:15 PM, said:

This hand is one of the merits to a good-bad 2NT without interference treatment that is becoming popular.  1M-P-1NT-P-?  2NT is a relay to 3C and shows a traditional jump shift or a forcing jump rebid.  This frees the immediate jump for a classic 5-5-5 hand (5-5, with five losers).  Although "strong" for the bid from LTC count, the poor spade secondaries justifies this call.

Are you crazy??? 2NT is GF relay! (sorry kenrexford, this is an old joke for old posters about old posts)

[FrancesHinden]

Chamaco, on Jan 9 2006, 05:49 PM, said:

It depends also how light we open at the 1 level: I frequently open shapely 10s with nothing wasted, so the minimum for my 2H rebid is ATxxx-AQxx-x-xxx.

I guess this counts

If opener has a shapely 10 with nothing wasted opposite this hand, say,

AJxxx
KQxx
x
xxx

then

(i) game has (limited) play
(ii) The opponents are making a fair number of tricks in a minor

so you still want to raise hearts at once ...

[inquiry]

After the slow start, I would miss slam. But since this has evolved into "other" ways to bid it, if someone jump rebids 3H (fast start) slam is easy, and if they use gazilla it is still possible.

Having said that, I would never start this hand 1S-1NT-2H or 1S-1NT-3H or 1S-1N-2C even though I play riton (a form of gazilla I guess) and my 3H jump rebids are very limited. The reason is I play MisIry, which is used with strong two suiters with "four or less losers". This hand qualifies for a MisIry opening, so let me add some words about MisIry, This is a problem hand type for MisIry with a side suit queen being useful. But the MisIry auction would go...

2NT - 4♣
4♥ - 5♥
6♥.

This is not so much science as blind luck.

2NT is either a club preempt or a strong two suiter with hearts and either spades or diamonds as a second suit.

4♣ is raising the preempt

4♥ says "I have a two s uiter, made up of ♠ and ♥, with either 3 or 4 losers".

Responder with two sure covers (spade Queen and heart ACE) can not pass, partner might have only three losers after all. Nor can he cue-bid 4NT (which shows diamond king) or five of a minor (as he lacks a minor suit control). So he is reduced to making a natural 5♥ slam try.

Opener with three losers, knows his partner has two cover cards in the majors and a heart fit. Bidding the slam relies on either ruffing a diamond in dummy (maybe after running spades for diamond pitches), or finding the diamond queen in dummy. Of course, opener may wimp out (I have four losers, partner has two covers, so stop), however, his partner is known to be long in clubs and hearts, and to have two sure covers (one must be in spades, the second in spades or hearts), so bidding makes sense to me.


Ben

[Blofeld]

I would have thought that with such a great dummy for ♦s and poor spades that this would be a poor hand for MisIry, and you'd prefer to open it at the 1-level.

Do you use MisIry for all 5530 hands with the right number of losers, Ben?

[inquiry]

Blofeld, on Jan 12 2006, 09:12 AM, said:

Do you use MisIry for all 5530 hands with the right number of losers, Ben?

You can construct some 5530 hands and not open them with MisIry, usually with both minors or a minor and a weak five card major. But on this hand if you open 1S and partner bids 1NT, then a jump to 3H is an "underbid". Why is that? 1S-1N-3H (if you play MisIry and Riton) shows 5-5 or 6-5 and 5 losers (or 4 losers but very control poor).

So, for me, if the auction started 1S-1N-3H, we would reach exactly 4H. Because partner would not be able to envision his hand being worth so much.

It is kind of funny to think this hand that so many are saying is not good enough for a jump to 3H, and yet for me, it is "too strong" for a jump rebid to 3H, but as you see all things are relative. Playing misiry and riton, jump shifts are always FIVE plus card (with four in second suit use riton), and limited (by failure to open misiry). For me, it is the descriptive nature of the jump shifts to suit legnth and strength that makes me like MisIry so much (yes, yes, I like the magic games and slams using MisIry sometimes find too). So I consider the jump shifts and jump rebids very much like the tradional precision 1M-bid-jump new suit by opener.

MisIry actually has a way to investigate diamonds as a contract and to explore if partner has the queen of diamonds over 2NT-3C, but after 2NT-4C, the auction possibilites are greatly limited.

[Chamaco]

inquiry, on Jan 12 2006, 02:29 PM, said:

Blofeld, on Jan 12 2006, 09:12 AM, said:

Do you use MisIry for all 5530 hands with the right number of losers, Ben?

You can construct some 5530 hands and not open them with MisIry, usually with both minors or a minor and a weak five card major. But on this hand if you open 1S and partner bids 1NT, then a jump to 3H is an "underbid". Why is that? 1S-1N-3H (if you play MisIry and Riton) shows 5-5 or 6-5 and 5 losers (or 4 losers but very control poor).

I play, in a Precision-like context, much the same way as Ben:

- 3-level "reverse" after a limited opening are 55 or better, about 5 losers
- 2NT rebids after a limited opening are 64 hands or better, about 5 losers
- 4.5 - losers 55 or better are handled via higher level openings
- strong club denies 2 suiters