[Echognome]

Scoring: IMP

(1♥) - X - (3♥) - X
(P) - 3♠ - (P) - 4♠
All Pass

---

Didn't actually play this hand, but bid it on bidding quest getting a zero. Was it just bad luck or should East or West have bid it differently?

[barmar]

I don't agree with West's double. That should be a responsive double, showing the minors in this case. East is normally expected to have 4 spades for his takeout double, so West should just support him.

West has 13 HCP, so he should be thinking about game. The problem, though, is that almost half his points are the KQ of the opponents' suit, opposite partner's shortness, so they're wasted values. This hand is a textbook example of the problem, which is probably why they put it on the site.

[Free]

Wests double is weird, what's he asking for? I'd probably just bid 3NT, to protect my Kings and leave the ♠ suit for what it is. Since I have lost values in ♥, a trump contract might not be the best choice...

[arrows]

In the given vulnerability, I'd probably choose double too. parnter may pass with a
dull hand and I 'd be happy.

Over 3♠, I 'd seriously consider 3NT with these stuffed soft value and slow cards.
suppose, partner had a perfect hand for suit contract but rather poor for notrump.
for example:
♠ KQxx
♥ x
♦ Axx
♣ Axxxx
3NT still has a fair chance because RHO probably got no entry to nail you down.

[Kalvan14]

I don't like at all W double. 3NT stands out.
E double is pretty normal (and might have been done with the mirror distribution, 3-1-(4-5).

Sometimes I think that one of the "lost skills" is choosing to play 3N instead of 4M with an 8-card fit

[twcho]

I think the problem west faced with his 1st round bidding is whether to choose 3nt or 4S or probably double.

4S can easily be the right contract if you have to lose lead to south who can then lead thru your H after the 1st H lead which means that 3nt will be easily defeated.

Normally double will deny 4 card S but 4S may easily be the wrong bid if pd happens to have only 3S or even 4 card in S won't help as shown in this example hand (they set it up for bidding challenge because it is difficult).

[hotShot]

There are 2 major problems in these hands.
Suit quality in ♠ and West has to downgrade ♥KQx, because the chance that the ace is with 1♥ bidder is more than 50%. So he is not strong enough to dbl and raise to 4♠. Even more important than the ♥ problem is that W hold 3 kings. West needs to get declarer, to protect his kings. It is very unlikely that South will hold an ace, because there aren't 4 HCP left for S.
So west needs to bid 3♠ or (better) 3NT (showing values in ♥). After 3NT East can than downgrade his single ♥, because it is opposite of partners values.

This is all wests fault.

[cherdano]

Jlall, on Jan 4 2006, 01:03 AM, said:

I don't agree with the concept of a responsive X denying 4 spades. Ostensibly the X will not deliver 4 spades, however when the Xer later bids 4 spades things change. This generally shows a 4S bid with only a 4 card suit and ability to play in at least one minor. Opener with 31(54) is free to pull.

Maybe so, but does this do justice to the actual hand? With more cards than controls and ♥KQx, I don't fancy playing 5m.

It seems tempting to suggest double-then-3N as the best way to describe the West hand, but that is a foolish plan -- you can play 3N when you have a 4-4 spade fit, but you can't when you don't.

So you have to pick between the actual bidding, or direct 4♠ or direct 3N. I think 3N is best.

Arend

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

I dont like the double from West,
but I dont play responsive doubles,
... and I may be influeneced by the
known hand.
I think I would bid 3S,3NT, 4S
(most likely), probably 3NT being best.

Bidding quest look on both hands,
if you have discovered the 4-4 spade fit,
it will be hard to stay out of 4S in the
real world.

Marlowe

[000002]

Facing a standard take/out double,holding 13HCPs and 4432, 3NT has more safety than 4♠,i agree.

But i suggest uesing this 3NT to show metastasis.i oppugn this auction:
1♥-x-3♥-x
pas--3♠-p--3nt
is it an natural bid ,nobody would doubt this.
my question is:does this have 1card♥stopper only?

await your comment,thanks

[toothbrush]

I think West asks for trouble with his dbl on 1♥. Just pass, partner will dbl on 3♥ and then you bid 3NT. It may have been better to judge this problem without seeing the hand of East, but with a good stopper in ♥ and values in minors, 3NT must be a reasonable option.
When you play doubles like the double of West, I believe you're convicted to play 4♠ on this one.

[cherdano]

toothbrush, on Jan 4 2006, 02:48 PM, said:

I think West asks for trouble with his dbl on 1♥. Just pass, partner will dbl on 3♥ and then you bid 3NT. It may have been better to judge this problem without seeing the hand of East, but with a good stopper in ♥ and values in minors, 3NT must be a reasonable option.
When you play doubles like the double of West, I believe you're convicted to play 4♠ on this one.

East doubled 1♥, not West.

[FrancesHinden]

Two things.

First, I agree with Justin - I think you were slightly unlucky. For everyone saying how 'obvious' it is to bid 3NT, it's hardly difficult to construct hands where 4S is good and 3NT poor. After all, the reason 3NT makes is the 9 running tricks in the minors. Give partner something dull such as KQxx x(x) Axx QJ10x(x) and 4S is routine while 3NT is in severe difficulty. Opponents pre-empt to make life difficult, and the 3H bid has made life difficult.

Second, there is a lot of dogmatism here about responsive doubles. There are many ways of playing responsive doubles, and the main thing is that you and your partner must be on the same wavelength. The two main schools are

i) Double of 3H denies 4S. You have to decide whether to bid 3S yourself or 3NT. You could also double and bid 3NT over 3S, but I would suggest that doesn't show a double stop (why not just bid 3NT first?). In this style I would bid 3NT on the given hand, not least beacuse 3S is not forcing.

ii) Double of 3H shows any two suits, either spades and a minor or both minors (this is the way I play). Double followed by 3NT over 3S would then imply both minors and probably a single heart stop (again, with a double heart stop you'd just bid 3NT the first round).

So whichever one of these you play, I don't think you can double and bid 3NT over 3S because it shows a different hand. As you say, it doesn't seem sane to say you can stop in 3NT when you do have a 4-4 spade fit, but not when you don't!

(p.s. while double-and-hope-partner-passes can be an upside to a responsive double on a fairly balanced hand; you know partner is not going to pass when you have KQx in hearts)

[toothbrush]

oops i misjudged the situation, NORTH opened, NOT south, sorry

[000002]

I emphasize that t/o doubler MAYBE 5cards ♠ when he holds 5044 hand with a poor ♠ suit,how did you distinguish it?

[Fluffy]

I think the bidding is fine, just bad luck

[awm]

I think 3NT is probably a better bid with the west cards. Double seems like something of a strange bid, because if partner doesn't have four spades, then 3NT is almost surely the best contract and you're almost surely not going to reach it. If double guarantees (or almost guarantees) four spades, then 4♠ seems like a reasonable call over 3♥ by west... although in this case I might be leery of the initial double with east's weak spade holding and try 2♣ to begin with.

Amusingly I would be endplayed by my methods into a winning 3NT call here, since I play double as penalty in this auction and would not be eager for a potentially 4-3 spade fit with such a weak suit in the long hand.

[cherdano]

Btw, while I generally enjoy Bidding Quest, these are the kind of hands that make it a little suspect to me. This is SUCH a constructed hand. Whoever authored it wasn't even satisfied to make 3N superior despite the 4-4 spade fit, but had to make 3N 100% by including all of ♦J, ♣JT and 4♠ 0% by not even giving West ♠QT9x. I have seen many hands in real life where 3N is better than 4M despite a 4-4 fit, but I can't recall it being 100% versus 0%...

Maybe bidding double-then-3N is the right strategy at a bidding challenge, because 4♠ must be wrong when you have an 8card fit, but must be right when you have a 4-3 fit...