[42]

Hi all!
I would like to use the xyz-convention also in PC (WJ 2005).
Am I right when I say that it appears only after the following sequences (and are the steps correct?) or did I overlook something?

1♣ 1♥
1♠

> 2♣= inv. --> opener bids 2♦ (Relais) unless he is strong and fears a pass
> 2♦ = gf
> 2♥ = 6+ ♥s, to play
> 2♠ = to play
> 2NT = inv., bal.
> 3♣ = signoff
> 3♦ = gf, 4♥s, 5+♦s
> 3♥/♠ = gf, 6+ ♥s/♠s

1♦ 1♥
1♠

> 2♣= inv.--> opener bids 2♦ (Relais) unless he is strong and fears a pass
> 2♦ = gf
> 2♥ = 6+ ♥s, to play
> 2♠ = to play
> 2NT = inv., bal.
> 3♣ = signoff
> 3♦ = gf, 4 ♥s, 5+ ♦s
> 3♥/♠ = gf, 6+ ♥s/♠s
?

Thanks for help!
Caren

[Flame]

Daniel have just posted this version of polish club which looks very well and include 2 way checkback.
http://www.geocities...0/sys/WJXXI.txt

[Gerben42]

Very interesting stuff, I had a look on the WJ XXI site before but unfortunately there was too much Polish text to wade through... Couldn't make sense of it even after automatic translation.

Classical PC:

1♣ 1♥ 1♠:
2♣ = Magister Checkback
2♦ = natural, NF

1♦ 1♥ 1♠:

2♣ = 4th suit forcing
2♦ = natural NF

This is quite a lot simpler and I think sufficient for most if not all partnerships.
In my regular partnership with Smirny we thought about including it and then we did away with it when it didn't seem to make any difference except for memory load.

[Robert]

Hi everyone

I use the xyz convention in any three suit auction ending in 1M. I also use it after

1z-1y-1NT

My version uses 2C as a semi puppet to 2D to allow for a possible 2D contract.

If partner continues after the 2C-2D bidding, the auction does invite.

Using the xyz convention allows two ways to bid to 2NT with as an invite. I use the

longer way to show max. values. Jumping to 2NT invites with 'less' interest.

1C-1D-1M also applies xyz methods in standard type auctions.

I use a 1C* forcing system so xyz does not apply in my 1C auctions.

Regards,
Robert

[awm]

I'm not a big believer in xyz for auctions where opener is more or less unlimited. The problem is that the 2♣ "puppet" bid carries a wide range of strengths and shapes. If opener can generally just accept the puppet with all hands, then this gives responder captaincy and that's fine... but if opener's range is something like 11-18 (or even wider) then opener has to reject the puppet on the fairly frequent strong hands, which can lead to a lot of issues in the subsequent bidding.

Elianna and I play "2-way NMF" which as I understand it (and as we play it anyway) is basically the same as xyz but only in auctions where opener rebids 1NT. Sam and I play it over 1♦-1♥-1♠ but we play a strong club and so opener is limited for that reason.

It seems like there should be better continuation options for a polish club system, since opener's major suit rebid is quite wide-ranging.

[42]

Hi!
Thx for your answers so far!
I don't see any problems due to opener's strength. The 1♦ opening is limited to 17 pts, 1♣ is 12-14 NT or 12-17 with clubs (we have also a 2♣ opening and therefore the 5°♣+ 4°M with 15-17 is excluded as we play it, as well as some 6°♣ hands) or 18+ with any distribution. A 1♥/♠ answer creates already a gf when opener has 18+ .
We also play 2way checkback (or xy-NT), so the memory load isn't so heavy

I have another question: Do you play some kind of checkback after the auction
1♠ (pass) 1NT (pass)
??
1♠ = 12-17, 1NT = 7-11 (a 2♥ answer shows 9+ pts with 6+ cards or 11+ with 5°, 2♣/♦ is nat. and either gf or 9-11 with 6+ cards).
I once played that 2♣ by opener showed 15+ pts and asked for a 5° ♥ --> 2♦ denied 5 ♥s, bidding went on nat. then.

[Gerben42]

What you are looking for is Gazilli. The question is how useful is this in a Polish Club type of system. Because of the limited openings you are already ahead of the field.

WJXXI (with WJ05 similar) suggests passing 1NT with 11 - 13 balanced, otherwise responder can bid a seminatural minor with 14 - 17.

[cwiggins]

Gazilli could be useful in the Polish club to separate the strong 5+/5+ and 6+/4+ hands from the strong 5/4 hands. Using Gazilli also eases some auctions with minimum hands.

The following is a direct quote of two posts by Giovanni Bobbio to rec.games.bridge on October 12 and 13, 2003 about using Gazilli in a strong club format. The only change was to adjust the HCP ranges because of the bug club showing 18+ instead of 17+.

The basic idea is to let some maximum hands go through the 2C relay and gain definition for the rest of them. Maximum is defined as decent 15 to 17; minimum is 11 to bad 15.

The partnership sequences affected are:
    1H - 1S - ...
    1H - 1NT - ...
    1S - 1NT - ...


Assume the start is 1H - 1S. Opener's replies are as follows:
    1NT - Bal, min
    2C - Gazzilli
    2D - Nat, min
    2H - Nat, min
    2S - Nat, min
    2NT - 6H + 4m, max
    3C/3D - 5H/5m, max
    3H - Nat, max, no 3S, great suit quality
    3S - Nat, game invitational
    3NT - Fit in S, a void
    4C,4D – Fit is S, singleton splinter

So far we've accounted for all the min. hands (except H/C). With that, or with one of the missing max hand types, opener rebids 2C.

Over 2C responders bids a 2D relay with a good 9 or more, forcing to game opposite a max hand. With less he signs off in 2H, 2S, 3C, or 3D; or he can show a weak hand with both minors with 2NT (say he holds a weak 4=0=4-5).

Assuming responder goes through the relay, so the sequence is 1H-1S-2C-2D, opener describes his hand:
    2H - min, 5H/4+C
    2S - max, 3S
    2NT - bal, max, no 3S
    3C/3D - 5H/4m, max, no 3S
    3H - 6H, max, no 3S, less than great suit quality
    3S - 6H, max, 3S
    3NT - 0=5=4=4, max

Further relays apply in most cases to ferret out opener's complete distribution, if needed.

The other two sequences (starting with 1H-1NT or 1S-1NT) work out similarly, with the only notable provision being that 1S-1NT-2C-2D-2H shows all the max hands with 3+ hearts, in order to be able to find out 3-5 heart fits.

In a natural setup, with the strong notrump including 5cM, the main difference is that 1M-1X-2C-2D-2NT shows the jump-shift 5/5 types. At least in the variation I play, I know others exist.

Note the difference between
    1H - 1S - 3H
and
    1H - 1S - 2C - 2D - 3H
Both show a max one-suiter without 3S, but the first shows a great heart suit.

The following is not from Giovanni Bobbio's note.

Regarding the 5+/5+ hands, you must decide whether you open 1C with hands like:
    ♠AKQxx
    ♥xx
    ♦x
    ♣AKxxx

If you do not open 1C with this hand, then the 5-5 hand would showthis hand. But if you do open 1C with this hand, then Gazilli would show 5+/5+ with 14-15 HCP and 5 losers, say:
    ♠AQxxx
    ♥xx
    ♦x
    ♣AKxxx
Or maybe a flawed (singleton honor) 16-17:
    ♠AQxxx
    ♥xx
    ♦K
    ♣AKxxx