[pbleighton]

Questions for those who would push to slam after J2NT:

For those who would rebid something other than 3C with the opener's hand after a 2NT response, it's my understanding that 3C is the ONLY response allowable under classic J2NT. If you have a singleton or void, you must show it. Do you have a different understanding, or is your suggestion based on a customized version?

For those who would cue bid 3H after a 3C rebid, do you always cue bid an ace or void after a shortness-showing rebid? Again, in classic J2NT, 3C promises no extra values or trump length - it could be a 5431 11 count (or 12 count, if you don't open 11s). I consider responder's hand to be a minimum GF. Whose responsibility is it, after 1S-2NT-3C, to put on the brakes if they have a minimum?
I would bid 4S after 3C with the South hand. To me, 3H is an overbid. 3H should show extras. Also, doesn't the 3 small diamonds after pd has shown club shortness give you some pause?

Peter

[P_Marlowe]

dcvetkov, on Dec 21 2005, 03:46 PM, said:

<snip>
after Jacoby 2NT ( South hand is better then limit raise, IMO)
<snip>

Hi,

the main problem is, 3S is a slight underbid, 2NT
a slight overbid, having pushed with 2NT, responder
should hit the brakes, because opener will expect
usually a bit more.
Having bid 3S you can be a bit pushy, ... maybe
opener will never buy, that you have those "Magic Cards".

Marlowe

[Gerben42]

If you play "game before slam", then 3♥ after 3♣ does not show extra's, like here. Now opener can show extra's by

a) cuebidding
b) bidding 3♠

[han]

hrothgar, on Dec 21 2005, 09:55 AM, said:

bearmum, on Dec 21 2005, 05:29 PM, said:

I do not believe there is a SANE way to bid 7♥

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy....

Well said Richard.

[Kalvan14]

The use of the 2NT Jacoby (be it the original convention, or some modified treatment) is quite important for everyone who plays 5-card majors, and must be discussed and agreed in detail in any serious partnership. I would submit that it is not an automatic bid, to be used every time responder has both 4 trumps and a game forcing hand.

The hand posted for S is a good case in point: responder has a (minimum) GF hand, in consideration of the good fit, and of the richness in controls. However, this hand is much better shown by picture bidding and fast arrival than going through the cumbersome (and space consuming) 2NT.

2♥ is not an automatic bid, either: IMHO, however, hiding a significant suit is never a good idea. The proper use of Fast Arrival (where I take Hardy's definition of FA: a limited hand, denying any 1st or 2nd round control in the unbid suits) allows to clarify this hand very well.

After an auction 1♠-2♥-3♥ [which normally agrees on hearts as trumps] a JS to 4♠ must indicate a 4-card fit, and a concentration of values in the major suits. There is no reason otherwise for S to bypass a 3♠ [in principle cue-bid], even with a minimum hand [opener has not limited his hand in any way].

IMHO, this solves the issue of the length in the heart suit.

[Fluffy]

2/1 has an easy method to arrive to 7♥, you just need to switch the dealer

1♦-1♠
2♠-3♥
4♥-4NT
5♦-7♥

I supose sayc cannot do this because they never know about the 4-4 in the majors (evil laugh)

[awm]

Jacoby 2NT should be restricted to those hands where the primary feature is good trump support, often with scattered controls or values. "Picture jump" sequences are for hands where the main feature is a side suit that potentially can provide many tricks. Splinters are for hands where the main feature is shortness. On this particular hand, I wouldn't qualify AKxx as a "side suit that can provide many tricks." I don't think this hand is all that different from AJTx AKx xx xxxx in terms of playing strength opposite most hands partner can hold.

I'm also not eager to be in 7♥, even though it is probably just over 50% to make. Obviously these are bad odds at IMPs. At matchpoints, enough of the field will probably stop in game (only 25 high after all) that you rate to lose a lot when 7♥ is one off and not gain all that much when it makes.

It's good to have some way to limit strength in one or both hands after jacoby, but I don't think jumping to 4♠ to show a minimum is ever right. This is a good time for serious 3NT and the like. If someone needs to show extras, opener has them especially after hearing a heart cue. Also, responder has no wastage opposite opener's short clubs, which is often a good thing. Opener's got to have values somewhere, and not many of them are in spades (responder has AJ) or in hearts (AK) or in clubs (opener's short) so I wouldn't worry much about the weak diamond holding.

[Robert]

Hi Kalvan14

I found my 'yellow cover' copy of Max Hardy's, Two Over One Game Force(revised-expanded)updated for the 1990's.

Page 97, example KJxxx AJx xx K10x

"Opener with Example 48 has bid one spade and heard a response of two hearts. Invoking the principle of fast arrival opener next jumps to four hearts to show three card support and minimum values for his opening bid."

It certainly 'looks' like three card support and there is 'also' is a minor suit "King."

My two bidding examples with the Heart King changed into a minor king do appear to be reasonable example hands contary to your claim.

Are you confusing 'picture jumps' and the principle of fast arrival?

Same page, "When responder bids two hearts after an opening bid of one spade he
promises a five card suit."

You did cite Max Hardy for your FA description. In your Post #109668.

Regards,
Robert

[Kalvan14]

I am not confusing picture bidding and FA.
I will look up my old copy of 2/1 by Hardy, but I find it a bit surprising what you quote. If FA can be invoked with controls (even 2nd round controls) in the unbid suits, we 're back to kindergarten bridge.

[bearmum]

I should have edited my previous post to read "Ido not believe there is any SANE way to get to 7♥ IF playing SAYC or 2/1 (unless using conventions which are not normally part of those systems)

[hrothgar]

Kalvan14, on Dec 22 2005, 07:19 AM, said:

I am not confusing picture bidding and FA.
I will look up my old copy of 2/1 by Hardy, but I find it a bit surprising what you quote. If FA can be invoked with controls (even 2nd round controls) in the unbid suits, we 're back to kindergarten bridge.

Funny that... Many people criticize Fast Arrival as kindergarden bridge....

For what its worth, my recollection is that traditional fast arrival sequences are used to clarify range and nothing about controls

[civill]

I don't think grand slams are good contracts for this hand, even if there were a way to them.But 6♠ should be arrived.How about this way:

[1♠-3NT] OJS(over jump shift for good trump support & good HCPs)
[4♣-4♥]
[5♦-5♥]
[6♠-pass]

This post has been edited by civill: 2005-December-23, 08:22

[whereagles]

Fast arrival is an quick and enjoyable way to miss slams and bid hopeless slams in 2/1. It has been giving 2/1 a bad name for a few years now.

If you skip stuff like serious/frivolous 3NT, picture bids, limiting bids, etc., and leave all to fast arrival, you're going to get into several discussions at the end of long matches.

[Kalvan14]

I might agree, if FA is what appears to be understood by a lot of people on this board (i.e., a min 2/1 - without any clear understanding or limitation in terms of controls, distribution and so on).
The FA I have been playing for the last 15 years or so is something quite different, and focusses on concentration of values, and lack of side controls - either by honors or by shornesses (and, accordingly, it does not happen all that often).

Frankly, I do not like the serious NT very much: a proper use of Q-bids (and IMHO the Italian style is still the best, even after so many years) can do very well without the serious 3N. Again, it may be a matter of style, and habits.

[hrothgar]

Kalvan14, on Dec 24 2005, 05:35 AM, said:

The FA I have been playing for the last 15 years or so is something quite different, and focusses on concentration of values, and lack of side controls - either by honors or by shornesses (and, accordingly, it does not happen all that often).

This is all fine and dandy...

I'll simply make the observation that the expression "Fast Arrival" is already quite well defined. Using this expression in a new and different manner really isn't conducive to effective communication.

Get over it.
You are wrong
You have confused "Fast Arrival" and "Picture Jumps"
Learn...

[luke warm]

Kalvan14, on Dec 23 2005, 09:35 PM, said:

Frankly, I do not like the serious NT very much: a proper use of Q-bids (and IMHO the Italian style is still the best, even after so many years) can do very well without the serious 3N. Again, it may be a matter of style, and habits.

the thing i like about serious 3nt is the same thing i like about 2 over 1, it immediately clues partner in as to your intentions... also, it costs nothing and has a potentially big payoff

[Free]

bearmum, on Dec 21 2005, 03:29 PM, said:

FIRSTLY WHY is SEVEN ♥ the optimum contract? -- only 4/4 fit (useless against a 5/0 dist if in SEVEN ♥)

Since nobody cared to respond to the question asked: 7♥ is better because you can get rid of your ♦ loser on the ♠ length. 6♠ is as good as 6NT since you don't need ruffs and if the suits behave you have 12 tricks, no more no less.

[Kalvan14]

hrothgar, on Dec 23 2005, 09:50 PM, said:

Kalvan14, on Dec 24 2005, 05:35 AM, said:

The FA I have been playing for the last 15 years or so is something quite different, and focusses on concentration of values, and lack of side controls - either by honors or by shornesses (and, accordingly, it does not happen all that often).

This is all fine and dandy...

I'll simply make the observation that the expression "Fast Arrival" is already quite well defined. Using this expression in a new and different manner really isn't conducive to effective communication.

Get over it.
You are wrong
You have confused "Fast Arrival" and "Picture Jumps"
Learn...

I beg to differ: I never played a FA which just gives an indication of minimum values. An picture bidding is a bit different, and with a wider scope.

Frankly, guys, I could not care less: I may (or may not) have misquoted Hardy, and when I have time and not better things to do I may go and check it.
But - if you do not mind - I find this discussion a bit childish; and limited in scope.

[Robert]

Hi Kalvan14

What hrothgar said does describe FA as shown in Max Hardy's book.

You cited Max Hardy and were so 'informed' by not one but two members.

Now you claim that the source that you cited for your FA style might not be

accurate? Why cite a source for a method, 'if' you do not play the methods?

Picture jumps might describe 'some' of your bidding. FA does not.

Why is it childish to 'inform' someone that their 'quoted' source does not agree

with their stated version of the 'facts?'

Admitting that you made a mistake when you are wrong is an adult trait.

Again let me state that you may play any method that you like. But calling it FA

is not accurate. I play a lot of modified conventions, but I do list 'z' modified.

Happy holidays to everyone.

Best regards,
Robert

[Kalvan14]

Dear Robert, as usual you lost another good opportunity to be silent.

I went and check Two over One Game Force, by Max Hardy, 2nd printing, August 1982. On page 45 (Chapter 3 - para. 2/1 Response) Max says:

Quote
"If responder jumps to game in opener's major suit after his initial 2/1 response in an auction where opener's values are still unknown, he again uses the principle of Fast Arrival, but this time his purpose is to convey that a complete picture of his hand has been given. The message sent by responder in this auction is that all of his values are in the 2 suits he has bid, his hand is a minimum for a GF auction and that he has no high card or shortness control in either of the 2 suits he has not bid"
Unquote

Being charitable (it is Christmas, and so on) I will assume that you just jumped on the 1st definition of FA you found (page 18 - unfortunately it refers to opener, and not to responder), and which (luckily) suited your argument, without checking other parts of the book (strange, since there is an analytical index at the end of the book, and you can easily check all references to a given topic).

Now let me see if you are an adult, or a spoiled teen-ager.

Have a happy 2006

PS: both the quote and the wishes for 2006 are addressed to hrotgar too