[mike777]

3nt, will leave the 3s bids to the experts.

[Robert]

Hello everyone

That example hand with 19 junky HCPs made up of an unguarded J, a stiff Q and two broken suits AKJxx Jxx AKJx Q might be better off bidding 2D over 1NT

If you are a beginner or intermediate with a weak heart do not read anything
below this line. The methods described are not standard bidding.
******************************************************************

Alvin Roth describes in his book, "Picture Bidding' how he bids a powerful hand by showing three suits and allows partner to pass if the hands do not fit at the three level.

Since partner often holds xx or Hx in spades, an auction opposite such a hand would be bid as follows.

Roth would likely not bid this hand(his opening bid show 14+HCP) as a powerful three suiter, however, if it were worth a jump shift, he would likely bid
1S-1NT-2D-2S-3H passable and showing 5341 Since with a four card heart suit, he would have bid 1S-1NT-2H-2S-3D with 5431

Roth also suggested that responder over a jump shift should just bid the next higher suit so that opener could bid out his pattern.

1S-1NT-3D-3H* is a waiting bid like 2C-2D* is some standard methods.

1S-1NT-3D-3H*-3S would show a 6S and 4D hand so the champions of the spade Queen being worth xx would be correct here. Opposite the example hand with AKJxx the stiff Queen is much less valuable in a 5-1 trump fit.

After partner shows a 6 card spade suit 1S-1NT-3D-3H*-3S that spade Q is an easy raise to 4S. If Roth is your partner, a 4C cuebid over 3S might even be possilbe. Roth had very high standards for opening bids. His strong jump shifts would be a thing of beauty and a joy forever.

1S-1NT-3D-3H*-3NT could show 5242

Holding 5341 I really like the Roth auction
1S-1NT-2D-2S-3H passable I tend to sometimes bid this way in my Big Club system.

Regards,
Robert

[Winstonm]

When you begin constructing hands consistent with partner's bidding you find that almost 100% of the time it contains a good spade suit - on the lines of AKJxx or AK10xx. The singleton Q of spades is adequate support for these suits in a game contract facing a known powerful hand.

It is my thinking that opener should strive to pattern out over 3S, bidding 4H with 5341, 4C with 5143, and 3N with 5422, and 4D with 6/5 5/5; however, quite often we will find partner with a 6331, 6421, 6332 that was awkward to bid - how many times have we seen a jump shift on a 3-card suit in these auctions - and 3S is the best time IMO to show a modicum of support. It does not rule out 3N and keeps many other contract viable.

But as anything, it is not a perfect bid - just the most flexible.

Winston

[Robert]

Hello Winstonm

Very good ideas in many cases, however, some ideas that I do not share.

Opener will not have strong spade suits anywhere near 100% of the time.
He only holds 5 cards in spades so his average holding from 19 HCP is a fraction that is 5 parts out of 13(The number of spades in a ratio to the 13 cards in the hand. The average holding in spades is about 38.46% or 7.3HCP

Since you cannot hold a fraction of a point, the average holding is about 7HCP

AKxxx opposite Q is not too bad. Something decent percentage of the time the hand will have less than 7 HCP in the suit. AJxxx opposite "Q' is not looking quite so good.

Since only the AKJ are possible combinations for the spade suit, a 6HCP holding is not possible. 0,1,3,4,5,7 and 8 are the holdings under consideration.

KJxxx opposite Q has two likely trump losers.

Axxxx opposite Q would give many people ulcers.

Kxxxx opposite Q is causing people to give up bridge.

Jxxxx AKQ AKQx x would be a rare case, however, playing Jxxxx opposite Q

would be a real character builder.

If partner 'relayed' with a 'waiting' type bid over the 3D bid, opener could indeed show his 6 card suit holding a 6331 type.

It is open to debate if opener should rebid his six card spade suit over
1S-1NT-3D-3NT, since partner could often be 0-1 cards in spades.

Biddng 4H with a junky 19HCP including an unsupported Jxx and a stiff Q
will get you to some really strange contracts when partner holds clubs.

I bid 1M-1NT-2m holding 18HCP hands that are stronger than this junky 19HCP Queen and Jack filled type hand.

5341 opposite 1336 Are you sure that you do not want to go back and bid 3NT?
What contract will you be playing?

Does partner prefer 4S on 'x' of spades or pass and play xxx opposite Jxx in four heats?

4NT appears to be inferior to 3NT with a possible result ending with 9 tricks.

Regards,
Robert

[han]

Robert, on Nov 25 2005, 10:01 PM, said:

Opener will not have strong spade suits anywhere near 100% of the time.
He only holds 5 cards in spades so his average holding from 19 HCP is a fraction that is 5 parts out of 13(The number of spades in a ratio to the 13 cards in the hand. The average holding in spades is about 38.46% or 7.3HCP

I read through the whole post and by the end I didn't remember what point you were trying to make. So let me only react to the fraction that I've quoted here, which is false for several reasons.

If any hand with 19HCP's qualified then you would expect that slightly less than 38.46% of the HCP's is in spades. You can figure out why, but it is not very important.

Much more important is that counting HCP's is not a good way to determine whether a hand qualifies for a jump shift. A hand with a good spade suit is much more likely to make a jump shift than a hand with a bad spade suit and the same number of HCP's. So in practice we can indeed expect a good spade suit.

But this is all irrelevant, the truth is that 3S does not promise spade support (and for some it denies spade support). So if partner decides to play in spades then we know for certain that partner has a good spade suit.

[Double !]

This is really bad news for someone, but I agree with the 3-spade preference as a default. 3H would show 5+Hts, 4D & 3NT have been discussed. There is a side issue to this problem IMO. Specifically, how do people play a 2NT (and 3NT) rebid by opener after 1S-p-1N-p-? Depending on how that is played, there are inferences that opener has good suits when opener jump-shifts. So, I suspect that the stiff Q in spades will not be that much of a disappointment, and might help opener assess where tricks are coming from. Lol: another case for limited openers.

Have a great day all:

DHL

[Winstonm]

[QUOTE]Robert: Opener will not have strong spade suits anywhere near 100% of the time.

Hey, Robert,

You may be right but the practical side I didn't mention is that the times you play in spades the Q will be adequate support.

If opener has jump shifted on AJ9xx, then he has to have a bunch of cards elsewhere in his hand or he will be truly 2-suited and we are playing in diamonds anyway. Worst case scenario would be something like this: AJ9xx, AQx, AKQx, x.
But he could also hold this: AKxxx, x, AKQx, Kxx.

However, a significant portion of the time he will hold something like:

AKJxxx, Axx, AKx, x.

Like I said, 3S is not the perfect bid but the best bid - practical and most flexible.

Winston

[pclayton]

3♠; pretty automatic. Nothing wrong with a forced preference with a stiff Q - at least with an intelligent pard.

3N without a ♥ stop is asking for trouble.

[jillybean]

As requested, here is the full hand. Who said I can't pass

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 -     1♠    Pass  1NT
 Pass  3♦    Pass  Pass
 Pass  

Traveller:
http://online.bridgebase.com/myhands/hands...rname=jillybean

[joker_gib]

jillybean2, on Nov 29 2005, 01:54 AM, said:

As requested, here is the full hand. Who said I can't pass 

Dealer: North Vul: NS Scoring: IMP

♠ AJT865 ♥ AQ ♦ AKQT2 ♣   ♠ 94 ♥ KJ72 ♦ 874 ♣ Q743 ♠ K732 ♥ T53 ♦ J3 ♣ KJ85 ♠ Q ♥ 9864 ♦ 965 ♣ AT962

West  North East  South

 -     1♠    Pass  1NT
 Pass  3♦    Pass  Pass
 Pass  

Traveller:
http://online.bridgebase.com/myhands/hands...rname=jillybean

Look at the first auction on the traveller !

It solves all problems, isn't it ?

ROFLOLLLLLLLLLLLLLl

[Walddk]

jillybean2, on Nov 29 2005, 01:54 AM, said:

As requested, here is the full hand. Who said I can't pass

Dear jb,

Passing a jump shift is criminal. It's GF, so once responder has bid once, she can't stop short of game (unless opps get doubled in something). You are obviously entitled to take a view, but for partnership morale I recommend that you don't pass a forcing bid.

It looks like the majority suggestion (3♠) would have worked very well here, but even 3NT would have led to some game.

I suspect opener will pull to 4♦ (showing 6-5), and responder will either correct to spades or support diamonds (5♦, or a 5♣ cue bid en route).

Roland

[jillybean]

Confession#23 I didn’t know a jump shift was 100% GF. If I had I am sure I would have responded 4♦.
(thinking a 4/3 fit is better than a 5/1 fit)


Jb

[mike777]

Well that is a big hand. Opening a strong 2 clubs is not unreasonable.
I do not think it is required to open every strong 2 suited hand at the one level.

[mikeh]

mike777, on Nov 29 2005, 10:37 AM, said:

Well that is a big hand. Opening a strong 2 clubs is not unreasonable.
I do not think it is required to open every strong 2 suited hand at the one level.

I agree with both points, Mike, altho I would always open the posted hand 1♠. That is my style, but I accept that this could be some player's 2♣ opening. The real point is not whether this is a 1♠ or 2♣ opening, but that a jumpshift by opener may never be passed. I would rather reach a hopeless contract by honouring partnership discipline than stop in a making partscore by passing the jumpshift. Not for the result, obviously, but for the benefits that flow from creating an atmosphere of trust.

[mike777]

mikeh, on Nov 29 2005, 11:21 AM, said:

mike777, on Nov 29 2005, 10:37 AM, said:

Well that is a big hand. Opening a strong 2 clubs is not unreasonable.
I do not think it is required to open every strong 2 suited hand at the one level.

I agree with both points, Mike, altho I would always open the posted hand 1♠. That is my style, but I accept that this could be some player's 2♣ opening. The real point is not whether this is a 1♠ or 2♣ opening, but that a jumpshift by opener may never be passed. I would rather reach a hopeless contract by honouring partnership discipline than stop in a making partscore by passing the jumpshift. Not for the result, obviously, but for the benefits that flow from creating an atmosphere of trust.

Of course. passing forcing bids with 6 hcp may lead to problems on some hands.

Give responder a hand that some players may pass 1s with?:
xxx=xxx=xxx=xxxx or
xx=xxxx=xxx=xxxx

and 4 spades has some play

give responder a huge hand such as the J or 9 of diamonds and the hand gets even better .

[jillybean]

jillybean2, on Nov 29 2005, 08:17 AM, said:

Confession#23 I didn’t know a jump shift was 100% GF. If I had I am sure I would have responded 4♦.
(thinking a 4/3 fit is better than a 5/1 fit)


Jb

To add to this, if playing 'Soloway SJS' 17-18 this falls just a tad short of GF.

It was an indy with a pickup expert so there were no agreements.

[han]

There is a big difference between a jump shift by *opener* and a jump shift by *responder*. Soloway jump shifts only apply to responder's first bid. So for example 1C-2S or 1H-3C would be Soloway jump shifts if you agree to play those.

Here it is opener who jumpshifts: 1S-1NT-3D, and most people play that this shows a very strong hand and is forcing to game. Responder should never pass this (or any later bid below game). It is very common for responder to retreat to opener's first suit after a jump shift and this does not show 3-card support. Here we see that the majority even bids 3S with a singleton.


Often you will find that even if you know what all the bids mean, there is no attractive bid available. You have to make a choice, so you try to make a lie that seems the least dangerous. Passing a forcing bid is very rarely an option.