[Fluffy]

S - W - N - E
1♣-1♥-ps-1♠
ps-2♥

supose 1♠ is 100% forcing.
Of course you play 1♣-2♥ as weak

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

missing is, how many spades does 1S promise?

2H just shows minimum and denies primary support
for spades, what else do you bid with a 5-3-3-2 shape
and 8-9 HCP?
Dont claim, you pass 1C holding

xx
AKJTx
xxx
xxx

and 2H is probably not the best idea, at least not red versus
green.

With kind regards
Marowe

[luis]

To me this is a bad 1♥ overcall, 4+ cards and about 7-10HCP.

[Fluffy]

luis, on Nov 13 2005, 10:41 PM, said:

To me this is a bad 1♥ overcall, 4+ cards and about 7-10HCP.

Right, I forgot 4 card overcalls, so please take the first choicee as 4 or 5 cards.

[kenrexford]

An agreement where 1S is 100% forcing and 2H is rebid on a 4-card suit makes no sense. In my mind, this auction parallels a pretend auction 1H-1C-1S-P-? If 1S is 100% forcing, then 1NT should be biddable on a flat, weak hand, to allow partner to bid a second suit, repeat spades, or whatever, especially if the opening was 1C. Sure, the lead may be wrong-sided, but how else can you have intelligent auctions? What, you rebid 2H with anything from 4-7 hearts? Partner now must guess what next, or bid his new suit at the three-level, if he has one? Or, ask for stoppers really really high?

[Winstonm]

In theory the spade bid should stongly deny a heart fit and the heart rebid absolutely denies a good spade fit - so it is either spade intolererance with a reasonable heart overcall or spade tolerance and a slightly better hand - forward movement one might say. What to bid with: Kx, AKJxx, Qxx, xxx in this auction?

With less I can pass. With shape I can bid another suit. By default it becomes either Kx, AKJxx, Qxx, xx (or the like) or x, AJ10xxx, xxx, KQx (or something like this that didn't rate 2H a better bid). Either way it seems 2H has to be semi-constructive and denies a real poor overcall - thinking in this that with x, KQ10xx, QJxx, xxx that 2D is non constructive.

Winston

[Robert]

Hello everyone

What is the overcall range and style?

1m-1M is 100% forcing in standard methods, however, it only shows @ 6+HCP.

Advancers' 1S is 'forcing', what HCP range does it promise? Is it forcing to a certain level or just for one round?

This is an interesting question. The bidding space is rapidly disappearing and we appear to have few options that have standard meanings.

My guess(with a pick up partner) would be to repeat the hearts to 'deny' extra values.

Using my current 8+HCP overcall range, I would like to have the agreement that my cuebid showed 12/13+ with a regular partner. Hopefully partner can bid something that gets us to a playable(reasonable?) contract after a 2H rebid.

If partner can bid 1S as forcing with @6+HCP, we really do not want to get very high. If partner has 12+HCPs, a minimum rebid holding 12+ by the 1H overcaller could miss game.

I suspect that partner does have some cards 'or' LHO is 'waiting' with the rest of my heart suit. Hopefully, it is partner with the good hand and he will know what to do over after my 2H 'nothing to report' rebid.

Regards,
Robert

[awm]

I'd tend to go with 6+ cards and 11+ points. To address some of the issues:

(1) Usually there is another natural rebid available. I play both 2♣ and 2♦ rebids as natural here (even though clubs is opener's suit), and while I'd like to have four cards for either rebid I could see bidding a three card minor on the rare awkward 2533 hand where notrump is untenable. I also don't think that a 1NT rebid from overcaller absolutely has to guarantee a stopper (and something like Qxx is certainly acceptable).

(2) While I don't believe that 1♠ always shows five cards, I would tend not to bid 1♠ on a weak four-card holding. The 1♥ bidder could double with 5♥+4♠, especially if the spades are good ones. With this in mind I think overcaller should raise spades on three nearly always. This removes a lot of "awkward rebid" hands.

(3) Yes there are some hands with six-card heart suits that don't merit a 2♥ call. However, usually you don't particularly want to rebid 2♥ on these hands either -- i.e. the heart suit is lousy and you are afraid of a penalty at the two level. Often with these hands one is better off to try raising spades on three, or rebidding a minor or NT, rather than the 2♥ call that you probably avoided for a reason the first time around.

[temp3600]

I play 2H as the minimum, nothing-to-add rebid. So 5 hearts (maybe 6, but not 4), and 8 - 11/12 points.

[Al_U_Card]

I call it the "I chanced an overcall (perhaps just for lead-direction etc.) and now you want to know what I have?" Okay, like reverse drury, 2H shows the hand that you will need a lot to get us to game.

[Kalvan14]

5 cards, exceptionally 4 (very very rare). Weakish hand, kind of forced reply.
It is exactly the same as 1♥-2♣-2♥: what does 2♥ promise better than 1♥ did? Nothing. It just deletes a lot of possible stronger hands.

[Flame]

I think it depend on ur wjo style, i was with those who think this show 11+ hcp hand, because with most 6 cards weak id jump to 2H, but if this isnt true like jlall style then it should show minimum.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

I think, one can ignore the case, that 2H is
a 4 carder, possible maybe, but quite unlikely,
because most of the time you will have 10+
for such an overcall and strength in the opponents
suits, i.e. you simply bid 1NT, assuming you do
not have enough support for partner spades.

Marlowe

[han]

Jlall, on Nov 14 2005, 09:54 AM, said:

awm, on Nov 14 2005, 03:50 AM, said:

(3) Yes there are some hands with six-card heart suits that don't merit a 2♥ call. However, usually you don't particularly want to rebid 2♥ on these hands either -- i.e. the heart suit is lousy and you are afraid of a penalty at the two level. Often with these hands one is better off to try raising spades on three, or rebidding a minor or NT, rather than the 2♥ call that you probably avoided for a reason the first time around.

I do not see any way to bid xx KTxxxx Axx xx or a hand type like that. Both bids seem automatic (but it often seems that way to me when that is not the case ). There are many many hands like this imo, but perhaps this is due to my styles of both overcalling light and believing that more classical hands are required for weak jump overcalls as well as better suits. I do not believe that many hands you would open 2H should be overcalled 2H. I also do not believe that is consistent, if I had the above hand and had to choose between pass and 2H, I would choose 2H. However if you also threw a 1H bid into the mix which promised this many HCP and 5+ hearts, I would much rather bid 1H.

Interesting, for me a 2H overcall is far less diciplined than a 2H opening. The idea is that once the opponents open, we are less likely to preempt partner. What are your reasons for opening 2H with more hands than you would overcall 2H with?

I play 1H followed by 2H as a hand that is too good for a direct 2H bid. I wonder what you do with xx AKJxxx Axx xx after (1C)-1H-1S if you also bid 1H followed by 2H with xx K10xxxx Axx xx.

[Al_U_Card]

Jlall, on Nov 15 2005, 03:09 PM, said:

As for "preempting partner" I do not believe in this theory. An opening preempt is a good start for our side if we are going to play in that suit for partscore/game/slam bidding. If we are going to play in a different suit it is less good, but the preempter gets a chance to further define his hand/fit for partner. If partner has a misfit it will often enable us to stop low. The only way it will "preempt" partner is if we belong in a different suit but he is not good enough to make a forcing call. I will not worry about this too much as that means it's a partscore hand in most cases.

I hope to convice my reg f2f of the merit in this. (one of these days at least )

[Fluffy]

Justin: IMO if you overcall 1♥ with 6 cards because you find the suit quality to make it 5 cards, on second round of bidding it still is a 5 card suit. Then you will rebid the same way as if it was a 2533 hand instead of 2632.

[SoTired]

The original question: If 1S is 100% forcing, what does 2H mean in the auction 1C 1H p 1S p 2H.

My answer: The question is taken out of context. If you play that 1S is forcing, you MUST define continuations for overcaller to describe different hands. It is similar to saying, how many points is 1C p 1H p 1N? The answer is dependent on the rest of the system and is different if playing precision, strong NT, or weak NT.

So what is overcaller supposed to do with the weak 8 hcp 5h hand? And the better 12 6h hand? If overcaller rebid 2D instead would it show more values or is it just a 2nd 4-card suit?

How can u define 1S as 100% forcing and not answer these questions as part of your system?

My own preference is the rule "Rebid own suit is always my weakest bid". But maybe "cheapest rebid is weakest" (1N) makes more sense.