[Gerben42]

How does your system find this contract?

---

Opponents mercifully silent.

[mr1303]

Answer: it doesn't. I end up in 4H, or possibly 5 or 6H depending on how lucky I'm feeling.

But lets assume I fudge a bit:

1C 1S
1NT 2D
2H 2S
2NT 3C
3D 3H
3S 4C
4D 4H
4S 4NT
6S

Explanation:

1C (strong) 1S (balanced, 3 suited or diamonds)
1NT (relay) 2D (4+ hearts balanced)
2H (relay) 2S (both majors)
2NT (relay) 3C (4423 shape)
3D (relay) 3H (4 slam points, where A = 3 K = 2 Q = 1. This would usually show 5 slam points but I'll happily admit it's a fudge)
3S (relay) 4C (1/2 top honours in spades, 0/3 in hearts)
4D (relay) 4H (0/3 in clubs)
4S (relay) 4NT (0/3 in diamonds)
6S (realising that you need to pitch a diamond loser on the hearts, and this doesn't help if hearts are trumps).

What would actually happen:

1C(strong) 1D (negative)
1H (Kokish) 1S (relay)
2H (min with 6 hearts) 4H (go away)

[hrothgar]

we relay...
I can post the bids if anyone cares....

[Rebound]

If it happens at all, it's going to go -
1C*-1D*-
1H-2H-
2S-3S-
4NT**-5C-
5D-5S-
6S...
*strong club and negative response
**keycard for Spades, the only way i think i would get there without a double agreement 6 keys sequence or learning a relay system. 1H thru 3S all natural.
Unlikely perhaps, but ya never know.

[adhoc3]

Modified precision.

1♣- 1♦
1♥*- 2♥ * Canape
2♠*- 4♠ *nature second suit
4NT*-5♣** *KC1403
5♦- 5♠ *Q
6♠

[MarceldB]

Because the non-natural system section, you allow me for:

Pass - 1♦
1♥ - 1NT
2♣ - 2♦
2♥ - 3♦
3♠- 3NT
4♠ - 4NT
6♠ - pass

Pass= 13+ any shape
1♦= 0-5p. (no Ace OR King+any Queen) OR 6-11 part balanced
1♥= relay (no 4333/4432 13-22p.) no 13-15p.: 5+c m+4cM, or ♣ only
1NT= 6-9p. 4333/4432 or 5m332 (no 2/3 toph.)
2♣= positive relay
2♦= 6-7p., or 8 bad points. no Ace + any King
2♥= relay
3♦= 4/4 Majors, 2/3 or 3/2 in the minors
3♠ - Control asking Bid (♠♣♦♥ order) **
3NT= King or Ace ♠
4♠= SLam Asking Bid, ♠= trump *
4NT= Queen♠, no Queen in doubleton

*After 3NT I can ask with 4♣ for exact distribution or through 4♦ End Signal play a game or ask for further Control cq. do a Slam asking bid.
4♥ = normally: further control? but because of control ♠ Ace no further control can be there, thus a SLam Asking Bid and ♥=trump. Resulting that 4♠ = SLam asking Bid for♠.

1 Ace of 5 (♠) already mentioned, thus without Q♠ RR passes the 4♠ bid.
====

Suppose West has Ace ♠ and East has K♠ ,
I will have a problem because if no Q♠ I have to play -if decided to investigate furtheron- on the 5-level.
No system is perfect

-----
** note: no control is impossible because 3 Queens will be downgraded to a 0-5 pointrange
=====
Finally, because starting with a Pass=13+ is easier than starting with a fert.
If East has to open, the bidding will be symmetrical with the same information.

For your info:
1♦ - 1♥
2♣ - 2♦
2♥ - 2♠
3♦ - etc.

1♦= 0-7 (if 7 then no Ace+ any King)
1♥= 13+ (no 13-22 4333/4432 etc.)
2♣= 6-7 bal. 4333/4432 or M or any 7222 with specification (if 4p.=Ace if 5p.=K+anyQ)
2♦ = positive relay
2♥= any 4333/4432
2♠= relay
3♦= again the 4/4 Majors and 2/3 or 3/2 in the minors

[inquiry]

Gerben42, on Nov 10 2005, 05:55 AM, said:

How does your system find this contract?

---

Opponents mercifully silent.

There seems to be two options, the cautious 3♥ "weak raise" forgetting about ♠'s and the over-optomistic 1♠ (kaplain inversion) before trying to settle into some number of ♥s. After the 3♥ bid, ♠ are lost but if responder sniffs at ♠ first, the bidding might be.

1♥ - 1♠
2♦ - 2♠
3♦ - 4♠
4NT - 5♣
5♦ - 6♠
Pass

where,
1S = 0 to 4 ♠'s
2D = four card S supprt
2S = signoff attempt
3D = forcing, game try, short clubs for sure
4S = I have enough to accept game try after i tried to signoff at two, no wasted C
4NT = RKCB for spades
5C = 1 or 4 keycards
5D = spade queen ask
6S = spade queen, no side king

[Free]

With my f2f partner:
1♣ - 1♦ (15+ any ; 0-5SlamPoints any distribution)
1♥ - 2♦ (relay ; 3-5SlamPoints & balanced)
2♥ - 2♠ (relay ; 4-5♥)
2NT - 3♣ (relay ; 4-4♠-♥)
3♥ - 3NT (relay ; 4SlamPoints)
4♣ - 4♦ (relay ; 0 tophonours ♥)
4♥ - 4NT (relay ; 1/2 tophonours ♠ and 0 tophonours ♣)
5♣ - 5♦ (relay ; 0 tophonours ♦)
6♠

Opener knows about AQxx-xxxx-xx-xxx, the known hand will play, but it's laydown anyway...

[david_c]

Ah, this hand makes a good (fictional) story.

At most tables the bidding went 1♥:2♥,4♥. North has ♥Qxx so this makes exactly.

One unfortunate pair got to 6♠ on these cards. West decided his hand was only worth a game try of 2♠ over 2♥, and East (who had been reading too much about how 4-4 fits can be better than 5-4) decided to raise naturally to 3♠. This got West really excited, and he bid 4NT (RKCB for spades) and followed up with 6♠ on finding partner with the ♠AQ. Down two.

[Gerben42]

Actually playing WJ2005 (approx.) one of my partners playing with his junior partner (sorry, no more junior here ) bid simply:

1♣* - 1♥
2♦** - 2♥***
2♠ - 4♠
4NT - 5♦
5♥ - 6♠
Pass

* Polish ♣
** Odwrotka
*** 4-card ♥ and minimum

[han]

inquiry, on Nov 10 2005, 07:33 AM, said:

There seems to be two options, the cautious 3♥ "weak raise" forgetting about ♠'s and the over-optomistic 1♠ (kaplain inversion) before trying to settle into some number of ♥s.

What's this system you are using Ben? Doesn't look like inquiry2over1. Using KI with 4-card support is AWFUL!

The only reasonable start in your system seems 1H-2H, and it might go:

1H-2H
2S-4S
4NT-5C
5D-5NT
6S-all pass.

Seems like you can't stay out of 6S if opener tries with 2S.

[Flame]

so great for you all i would never show the spade and i think 95% of the bridge players wont either, but i guess non of those 95% read the forum :-)
I would bid
1H-3C* 6-9 4 card supprt.
4H- P

[awm]

Playing fairly standard methods, as I do with Elianna, the auction will start:

1♥-2♥...

Now opener has some decisions to make. Honestly I wouldn't fault a direct jump to 4♥ on the west hand, in which case slam will be missed. However, it's certainly possible to imagine a spade fit playing better than hearts (2♥ only promised three-card support after all):

2♠ (natural game try+) - 3♠ (choice of games)
4NT (1430 rkc ♠) - 5♣ (one)
5♦ (Q ask?) - 6♠ (queen but no side king)

Playing Sam Ieong and my current relay methods:

1♣ (strong) - 1♥ (5+ hcp, 2-6 321 points, balanced or 4+♠)
1♠ (relay, either GF, or a 5+ major) - 2♣ (balanced 5-8 hcp hand)
2♦ (relay, GF) - 2NT (some 4432 with doubleton ♦)
3♣ (relay) - 3♠ (4-4-2-3)
4♥ (sets ♠) - 4♠ (basically forced)
4NT (1430 rkc) - 5♣ (one)
5♦ (♠Q?) - 5♠ (♠Q no ♥K)
6♠

Playing Josh Sher and my current methods:

1♣ (strong) - 1♦ (less than GF)
2♣ (both majors) - 2♦ (which is longer?)
2♥ (longer hearts) - 3♠ (prefer the 4-4 fit, gamegoing...)
4NT (rkc) - 5♦ (one keycard)
5♥ (♠Q?) - 6♠ (yes)

[mike777]

1h=2h
2s=3s
4nt=5d
5h=6s

[mike777]

Weiss clb:

1c=1d
1h=3h
3s=4s
5c=5d
6h=p

1c=strong
1d=0-2 controls (AK)
1h=~17-20, 4+h, may have longer minor
3h=invite in strong club context, 4Hearts
3s=asking
4s=AQ on this auction
6H=end, no use looking for Grand

common problem is to find a 4-4 fit after finding a 6-4 fit .

The problem with this auction would be partner not realizing that 3H bid will often not have more than 6 hcp so what are they going to do with club and d loser so best to just bid 4h. The key would be to have a good understanding of how limited 3h is and after partner shows up with 6 hcp that wll be limit in 5H and sign off, too hard to find 6spades I think.

[MarceldB]

Jlall, on Nov 10 2005, 11:43 PM, said:

I am very skeptical that non relayers would find 6S here. I sure wouldn't.

not even the non relayers (happy with Ace♣ + Q♠ ?), in the relayers camp it's a mess too.

I have posted some months ago a remark that bidding such hands, specially in relay systems , needs - although with the actual hand it should fit wonderfull for your system and you reach the 100% contract - a fair approach.
I mean: what if the honours are placed differently in the framework of the sequence sofar and the received information.

mr1303: (although under admitted fudging circumstances)
4♥ level = auto 5-level with ♦ Queen too.
4 ♦ relay and f.e. 4NT= ♣ + ♦ thus Q♠, KorQ ♣ , K or Q♦

----
Free:
if Q♦?
OR
after the 4♥ relay: 5♦=K orQ♣ and K orQ♦ and thus Q♠

------

Inquiry:
question: Ace♣ will that be welcome if you know partner is short in ♣ ?

------

I may suppose the starting point is a safe contract, best defence/lead

Best regards,
Marcel

P.S.
For the sake of good order:
the result of my given bidding sequence does not matter me, it's the principle that counts for me.

[luke warm]

Gerben42, on Nov 10 2005, 05:55 AM, said:

How does your system find this contract?

Dealer: West Vul: ???? Scoring: Unknown

♠ KJxx ♥ AKJxxx ♦ Ax ♣ x ♠ AQxx ♥ Txxx ♦ xx ♣ xxx

Opponents mercifully silent.

i'm with justin on the several auctions i saw that bid rkc... why was it for spades, aren't hearts set? anyway, my weiss bidding is slightly different from mike's, which means his is probably right

1c : 1d
1h : 2h
2s : 3s (A,Q)
4d : 4h
5c : 5d
5h

responder has xx(x) in diamonds and clubs, making it even less likely we have a spade fit.. i don't see any way to get to spades, even if i judged the west hand to be less than a 1c opening (i wouldn't) and opened it 1s

[Robert]

Hello Jlall

I play two way game tries. 1H-2H-2S* asks partner to bid 2NT unless he has soft values concentrated in clubs or diamonds, when he bids 2S-3m. I can evaluate better what his soft values might be worth.

1H-2H-2S*-2NT*-3H* is a long suit game try in Spades(you skipped over both minors after showing a 'long suit' game try.

With 6331 pattern you make a direct short suit game try 1H-2H-3m and 1H-2H-2NT* is the substitute bid with short spades.

Unless you have some special agreement, after finding a 4-4 spade fit, many people play that 4NT is RKC for spades.

If you hold 3=6=3=1 and you play two way game tries. Spades are never considered as a possible trump suit. 1H-2H-3C* direct bid show a short suit game try. Whether partner bid 3H or 4H or 3NT*(serious or non serious) or some bid, 4NT is RKC for hearts. You never found a 4-4 spade fit because it did not exist with your 3631 example.

Regards,
Robert