[Robert]

Hello everyone

I am not a relay method bidder. Even if some disagree because many of my auctions are relay type methods.

1C*=16+
1D*=0-7
1H*=unbalanced hand with 5+ hearts or 5+ clubs
1NT*=4-7(an Ace if 4HCP) with 4Ss
4C*=shortness, agreeing spades
4NT*=since opener has not bid Ss yet, you bid 4NT to show 'good trumps', if partner had bid spades earlier, you would jump to 5Ss here to show 'good trumps.'
Opener is doing a lot of bidding opposite a 4-7HCP and trying for slam 'without' the AQ of trumps. A 5S jump of 4NT 'trump cue bid' substitute bid gives opener everything that he needs to bid a good slam.

6S If partner has two hearts, you ruff them out, if partner has 4 hearts, a normal break brings in the suit. If partner has 3 hearts, you need to bring in the suit or get a heart lead that is not ruffed.

Normal distribution gives partner two hearts and the contract is good one.

The bad break of Qxx off side beats the 6S contract, however, I do not feel bad about bidding an above average slam that bad distribution defeats.

Regards,
Robert

[Robert]

Hello everyone

I fat fingered my typing.

Down towards the lower part of my last post in the 4C* explanation it should read,
"A 5S jump or 4NT(I typed 'of' rather than 'or') Me bad. Sorry.

No natural bids were made 'except' for opener naming the final slam contract.

Ain't science wonderful.

Regards,
Robert

[mike777]

Jlall, on Nov 10 2005, 05:43 PM, said:

To those who start 1H-2H-2S-3S-4N...why is 4N keycard for spades? Would you ever bid 2S with less than 4 spades (3613 slam try)? How would you then make hearts your agreed suit again?

Great question, I asked around and here were some general responses:

"3S is accepting the try and shows 4+ spades, in case opener also has 4 spades....

4 spades should really be to play....should simply bid it to get there....I would say if you want to Kick back for hearts, you bid something else and then bid 4 spades,
including 3NT, as once you bid and raise both majors, there is no way you'd want to actually play 3NT....It seems to me that you virtually would never hold such a hand
anyway....let me try to construct one....

KJx AKQJT9 Kx Kx : maybe i guess....

... you have to rebid 4S (or 4NT) if you want spades to be trumps (when you hold a decent 4 spades)...and you bid anything else to stay with hearts....and since bids below 4H are forcing, you can always bid one of them followed by 4S to be Kickback......."

[ahri]

what's wrong with natural:
1♥ - 1♠
4♣ - 4♥
4NT - 5♦
5♥ - 5NT
6♠

1♠ is matter of style.

Btw, I play modified polish club, so i find 4-4 fit after all...
Had something similar today in local club, just minor-suit slam.

[Echognome]

1♥ - 3♥
4♥ - Pass

Carry on. Next board.

[cherdano]

Jlall, on Nov 11 2005, 12:43 AM, said:

To those who start 1H-2H-2S-3S-4N...why is 4N keycard for spades? Would you ever bid 2S with less than 4 spades (3613 slam try)? How would you then make hearts your agreed suit again?

I was wondering the same. I would argue 4NT should be 6-keycard BW here, but I would not be sure that partner is on the same wavelength.

Also note that the auction 1H-2H-2S-3S-4NT etc.->6S gambles on the heart queen coming down, since opener doesn't know about reponder's 4th heart. (And no, I don't buy that responder wouldn't accept the game try without the 4th heart.)

Arend

[Gerben42]

Quote

what's wrong with natural:
1♥ - 1♠

You cannot be serious. With 4-card support for partner's major and a hand that is worth just one bid you raise.

MP scores on a 20 top basis:

6♠: 20
4♥: 13
6♥: 3

[Free]

MarceldB, on Nov 11 2005, 12:02 AM, said:

Free:
if Q♦?
OR
after the 4♥ relay: 5♦=K orQ♣ and K orQ♦ and thus Q♠

After denying a ♣ honour, partner has either ♠A and ♦Q OR ♠Q and ♦KQ OR ♠AQ. When he has a ♦ honour, he'll bid 5♥ instead of 5♦ (because exactly 1 ♠ honour) so I can pass this out.

[luke warm]

cherdano, on Nov 11 2005, 03:30 AM, said:

Jlall, on Nov 11 2005, 12:43 AM, said:

To those who start 1H-2H-2S-3S-4N...why is 4N keycard for spades? Would you ever bid 2S with less than 4 spades (3613 slam try)? How would you then make hearts your agreed suit again?

I was wondering the same. I would argue 4NT should be 6-keycard BW here, but I would not be sure that partner is on the same wavelength.

Also note that the auction 1H-2H-2S-3S-4NT etc.->6S gambles on the heart queen coming down, since opener doesn't know about reponder's 4th heart. (And no, I don't buy that responder wouldn't accept the game try without the 4th heart.)

Arend

arend, playing any naturalish system after 1h : 2h, when is 2s anything other than a game try of some sort? it can but doesn't have to be suit showing, does it?

[MarceldB]

Free, on Nov 11 2005, 01:11 PM, said:

MarceldB, on Nov 11 2005, 12:02 AM, said:

Free:
if Q♦?
OR
after the 4♥ relay: 5♦=K orQ♣ and K orQ♦ and thus Q♠

After denying a ♣ honour, partner has either ♠A and ♦Q OR ♠Q and ♦KQ OR ♠AQ. When he has a ♦ honour, he'll bid 5♥ instead of 5♦ (because exactly 1 ♠ honour) so I can pass this out.

Thanks Free for your reply.

I had figured that out too before quoting you.
You have good chances in 5♥ of course.

In the option with 5♦ after the 4♥ relay; can you play 5♥? or Jack Scan?

In case of 5♠ I won't speak about the possibility of an eventual ♥ ruff by the way.

====
I understand that in practice you will take your chances for your investigation.
Opponent has to lead properly firstly and cards can be friendly.

Perhaps I'm too focussed on a 100% safe investigation, starting from the fact that the outstanding honours will be on the wrong spot regarding the lead etc..
It is not a bidding contest. Although...


Cheers,
Marcel

[Free]

After the 5♦ bid it's impossible to play 5♥. That's why it should be forseen before investigating. We are at the perfect level for further investigation: 5♥ makes sure we don't have slam and we will make that (on finesse at most), 5♦ gives us a very good slam.

About your 100% investigation: I think a 75+% certainty is more than enough. A while ago I bid 7♦ on following hands:
Axxx-x-AJx-Axxxx
KQJx-Ax-Kxxxxxx-void
Nice prospects isn't it? Well, ♦QTx were wrongsided and we went -1. I could've bid 7NT, but for some reason I didn't (probably because it was MP's and opps wouldn't find grand anyway). However, 7NT goes down a lot after a ♥ or ♣ lead!

We play systems where we like our odds. If they are above 80%, I don't mind bidding it and hope percentages will do the rest of the work

[mikestar]

1♥ 2♥ Normal opening and raise
2♠ 3♠ Game try; choice of games
3NT 4♣ Double RKCB; one key (can't want to play 3NT with a double major fit)
4♦ 4♥ Spiral scan; no Q♥
4♠ 5♦ Q♠, extra length in hearts, no K♣
5NT 6♣ Spiral scan, no K♦. (5M would have been to play.)
6♠ We will need a ♦ pitch--had partner shown K♦ I bid 6♥


The extra heart is critical, slam is under 50% with only nine hearts (52% we drop Q♥, but 5-0 ♠ sinks us).

[luke warm]

i'm still confused... after 1h/2h/2s, why is 3s a choice of games? does 2s show a 2nd suit, is it a "need help" bid, is it a short suit try, what is it?

i don't think a person can take 2s as showing 4 cards if help suit bids are part of their structure.. i especially don't understand 4c as 6 ace rkc after opener bid 3nt over 3s, which to me simply confirms <4 cards for the 2s bid ("i heard 3s partner, i needed help there and now i think 3nt is playable")

i'm not saying you're wrong, i'm just saying that it doesn't seem as clearcut as you make it appear

[tysen2k]

Gerben42, on Nov 11 2005, 02:27 AM, said:

MP scores on a 20 top basis:

6♠: 20
4♥: 13
6♥: 3

If this is true then 4♠ should be worth about 18 or 19.

I'm a non-relayer and I get to 4♥ or 4♠ depending on my mood.

1♣ 1♦ - 17+ with distribution; 0-8 HCP
1♥ 1♠ - any balanced or 2-suited with better hearts; any balanced or any 0-5
2♥ 4M - 17-22, 5+♥, 4+♠; double fit is nice but keep it simple
P

[keylime]

KLPV16 auction:

1♣-1♦
1♥ *forced relay-1♠ *forced
2♠ (4-5-x-x, one round force) -2NT* (asking for further info)
3♠ (4-6-x-x, non-min) - 3NT (asking for side suit controls)
4♦ (has diamond, not club) - 5♠ (trump quality ask)
6♠

[mike777]

keylime, on Nov 11 2005, 04:31 PM, said:

KLPV16 auction:

1♣-1♦
1♥ *forced relay-1♠ *forced
2♠ (4-5-x-x, one round force) -2NT* (asking for further info)
3♠ (4-6-x-x, non-min) - 3NT (asking for side suit controls)
4♦ (has diamond, not club) - 5♠ (trump quality ask)
6♠

I always thought most bridge theory argued that it is better for strong hand to ask and weak hand to respond, this is reversed.

[luke warm]

yes, dwayne believes in a full (or 3 quarters) duplex system... opener forces a response so he can show a hand type, after which responder asks... otoh, there are times opener asks... i have a hard time knowing who asks what when...

[mikestar]

luke warm, on Nov 11 2005, 05:19 PM, said:

i'm still confused... after 1h/2h/2s, why is 3s a choice of games? does 2s show a 2nd suit, is it a "need help" bid, is it a short suit try, what is it?

i don't think a person can take 2s as showing 4 cards if help suit bids are part of their structure.. i especially don't understand 4c as 6 ace rkc after opener bid 3nt over 3s, which to me simply confirms <4 cards for the 2s bid ("i heard 3s partner, i needed help there and now i think 3nt is playable")

i'm not saying you're wrong, i'm just saying that it doesn't seem as clearcut as you make it appear

After a short suit game try, 3S wouldn't be choice of games (not sure what it should be). After a help suit game try, this is choice of games--if opener has only three, he will prefer hearts, but he might have four spades for a help suit try.

This sort of hand is one of the reasons why the Granovetters and some others advocate long suit tries--they faciliate finding double fits which will get you to games and slams that the field will miss.