[keylime]

Let's just say that pard and I had a very lengthy discussion after the session on the style of t/o doubles we were going to employ. The discussion is still ongoing.

[Fluffy]

I double when I have 3+ cards on teh other suits and also 12+ HCP on them. This hand rates for a double.

[whereagles]

There is a case to pass, but to double is certainly acceptable. Matter of style.

[pclayton]

Your pard's initial double certainly contributed to the result here - and your 4♥ created a guessing situation - for you. Perhaps a 2♦ cue early on would let you get your hearts in and show some strength. Maybe there should be a way for 4th hand to show a 2 suiter after a double, but I don't know of any.

Give pard a more 'typical' TOx os AQxx, Axx, xx, Qxxx and pard still has his dbl especially at MPs, and you rate to set 4♠ whereby 5♣ doesn't have a chance.

I'll stick to my guns here - doubles show SHAPE.

[han]

Keylime,

Clearly the majority votes for double, while some very good players vote for pass. Your 4H bid looks fine to me, but pulling partner's penalty double after having already jumped to 4H seems wrong. Perhaps you should look at your own bids first before you blame partner for doubling.

[jdeegan]

pclayton, on Nov 7 2005, 02:44 PM, said:

I always get a kick out of watching folks make doubles on triple-three-4's. Then they wonder why they go down in 2 of a major after pard gets tapped a few times in his 4-3 fit at the 2 level.

Double for me, not even a reluctant double as I intend to treat the hand as a good minimum later on despite its THREE AND ONE-HALF quick tricks. BTW, getting tapped out on a 4-3 isn't much of a problem at the two level if you remember to discard on the third round to avoid the tap. Personally, I enjoy playing the 4-3 fits, esp. at lower levels. With honors in each suit, we might, with luck, have a suit good enough to pull trumps.

On the actual hand, we can't see the opponents' cards, but you have five potential tricks if the round suits divide 3-2. Four spades figures to go down one or two. My question is: why in the world did partner pull your double? If the best defense he/she can give for his bidding is that your TO double was offshape, I would say his analysis is as bad as his bidding.

P.S. If the opponents have two singletons in the round suits, I will be -590, but this has happened before, and it will happen again.

[keylime]

Well the peace talks over this double have concluded, and happy to report that an appropriate agreement has been made.

I still am not liking the double, but I definitely agree with the sentiment in retrospect about yanking pard's double. A very valid point mentioned by Han. :-)

New p'ships. The pains of them, the joys of them.

[kenrexford]

Funny to me that no one has mentioned it, but the stand-out call to me is 1NT.

Several reasons for this.

#1 I have about 15 points and am balanced. Sure, 14 is not 15, but three Aces are undervalued.

#2 I care less about the diamond stopper problem. If partner visualizes game, he can "transfer" me to 3#d (bidding 2NT as we play), which we use as asking about the diamond stopper realities. If he does that, I bid my four-card suit to deny a real stopper. They never lead diamonds when it is right, anyway.

#3 The opponents are slammed by 1NT overcalls. No Suit/Lead, preemptive of them, etc.

#4 The opponents cannot get to 1NT first.

#5 1NT is much less a distortion. Transfers and Stayman are nice here.

Occasionally, 1NT gets picked off. In the long run, however, it pays.

[keylime]

1NT. There's a thought.

[pclayton]

1N makes me wretch.

Were not going to start up that weak NT overcall thread again? Please NO.

[SoTired]

I am all for upgrading good 14's to 15, but I don't see anything worth upgrading. If you upgrade this bland 4333 to 15, then change your CC's lower bound to 14 because you will always find an excuse.

This is an automatic dbl. Not doubling on this hand is old-style rules. Similar to requiring 2-of-3 or 3-of-5 to open a weak 2. Or can't open 1N unless 3 suits stopped and no worthless dblton. People quote these requirements all the time, but practical experience has shown them inadequate.

The really sad part of this discussion, is that you pulled partner's penalty dbl with a hand that has considerably more defense than required and don't see how terrible a crime that was.

[keylime]

It's a hand I confess I wish I was playing power doubles and 1NT as a three suited t/o on.

[Clinch]

keylime, on Nov 11 2005, 04:20 PM, said:

It's a hand I confess I wish I was playing power doubles and 1NT as a three suited t/o on.

Yes, whenever I pick up a balanced 14 count I have that thought

Peter.
New York, NY.

[Robert]

hello kenrexford

1. Aces are undervalued. 4333 shapes often 'reduce' the playing value of a hand.
Your diamond 'stopper' 'xxx' is a bit thin.

2. Having partner 'transfer' you to 3Ds requires that you now take nine tricks in some as yet 'unknown' suit since you 'did not' have a diamond stopper when you overcalled 1NT.

Making a bid of 3 spades in a weak 4 card spade suit 'invites' the other pair to produce a Red card at the worst possible time.

Some pairs lead diamonds some of the time. That might be a problem after they cash three diamond and still hold the lead.

Remember that you did bid to take 'nine' tricks in a weak 4 card spade suit.

Losing 3 diamond tricks will almost give them book with ten more tricks to go.
Do you really believe that you will win nine out of the next ten tricks?

Where were you planning on 'throwing' your 3 small diamonds even if they do not lead them at the first trick?

3. The other pair can use simple addition 'before' they place a Red card on the table. A NT overcall is an easy bid to double for penalties.

4. You will win the race to bid 1NT with 'this kind of overcall.' That Red card produced 'shortly' after your 1NT overcall will suggest that winning the race to bid 1NT might really be a losing option.

5. Transfers and Stayman are nice here.

How does your partner 'know' that you did not have your bid? Most players use transfers and Stayman and often 'bid' again thinking that partner might have his stated values.

You are a bit short of values and also hold 'no diamond stopper.'

If your partner does select a suit, you also have 'zero' ruffing values 'until' the fourth round of some suit is played.

Does your partner also 'know' to bid 3Ds 'if' Stayman reveals that your partnership does not have a spade or heart fit? You would still have to take nine tricks in a possible 4-3 major fit with Zero ruffing values in your hand.

NT overcalls with a stopper and with the proper values do produce positive results.

Your NT overcall version is slated to have many more penalties and far fewer positive scores than 'normal' NT overcalls.

Regards,
Robert

[kenrexford]

Chicken. ;-)

[Robert]

hello everyone

My bid with that hand is X. A somewhat better bid than passing.

If that makes me a chicken instead of overcalling a 'stopperless', 'overbid' 1NT, than cluck, cluck, cluck.

I am not proud of that X, it is just that passing with that shape and HCP seems even more wrong.

I am a proud member of the too chicken to 'overbid' with NT when a much better double is available.

I also happen to be a 'rooster' if that makes any difference.

See you at sunrise. That will be me crowing!

Regards,
Robert the Rooster

[Kalvan14]

Robert, on Nov 13 2005, 12:31 AM, said:

hello everyone

My bid with that hand is X. A somewhat better bid than passing.

If that makes me a chicken instead of overcalling a 'stopperless', 'overbid' 1NT, than cluck, cluck, cluck.

I am not proud of that X, it is just that passing with that shape and HCP seems even more wrong.

I am a proud member of the too chicken to 'overbid' with NT when a much better double is available.

I also happen to be a 'rooster' if that makes any difference.

See you at sunrise. That will be me crowing!

Regards,
Robert the Rooster

Cluck, cluck, cluck here too
Calvin the other Rooster