[Chamaco]

Hi all,
I'd appreciate a lot constructive suggestions/comments on the following issue :-)

We play Real Diamond Precision, with weak NT (good 12-15), and 1D is ALWAYS 4+ cards and unbalanced.
(For the sake of this discussion I'd like to skip the issue of hands with 5 bad clubs+ a 4cM + 3 diamonds. Let's just assume that 1D is always 4+ cards and unbalanced, the point is interesting, But I'd prefer to use other threads to discuss it)


Now, we use opener's 1NT rebid as a "catchall" to show hands that cannot or do not want to show a second suit at the 2 level; most times it will be hands with longer clubs than diamonds, or hands that do not want to reverse, including 4441's.

This way, the 2C rebid always shows 5+D and 4+C

Example (uncontested):

1D-1H
..-1NT = Canapè in minors (4D+5C)
..-2C = Natural, excluding canapè (5+D and 4+C)


1D-1S
..1NT =
...........a.Canapè in minors (4D+5C)
...........b.5D+4H (cannot reverse)
...........c.1=4=4=4 (cannot reverse)
..-2C = Natural, excluding canapè (5+D and 4+C)


THE QUESTION

The above scheme refers to uncontested auctions.
However, let's assume a sandwich overcall.

1D-(p)-1H-(1S)

Now, what should opener's 1NT rebid mean ?

I have thought of:
....a. "natural-ish" meaning. Of course the 1D opener is unbalanced so it cannot show a bal hand, but *might* show a hand with shortness in pard suit and a stopper (keep in mind we use support doubles so we might just pass to deny 3 cd support), typically a 4=1=5=3.
I am not sure this is the best way to use 1NT

....b. ignore interference, that is, use it to show a canapè hand. However, I hate to wrongside NT when opps have advertised a suit.

What do you think ?

Thanks in advance for any suggestions !!

[helene_t]

I think option "a" must be right. Opp's interference gives you extra options (pass and double) so it can't be right to ignore the interference.

Btw, my attempt to establish a BBO-standard Precision on the basis of polls was also with real diamonds, so if I can ad these clarifications to the draft.

[Gerben42]

Defenitely a). I play "almost real diamond precision" with one regular partner (unbalanced showing 3 or more) and there 1NT is that hand.

[Free]

If opps intervene with 1♠, you get an extra bid. So you could pass with a normal 1NT rebid, Dbl with a 1♠ rebid, or bid 1NT as 'naturalish'. You can ofcourse swap any meaning, but at least make use of the pass!

[Chamaco]

Free, on Oct 26 2005, 02:59 PM, said:

You can ofcourse swap any meaning, but at least make use of the pass!

Sure ! LOL :-)


The pass has certainly a natural meaning ("Nothing to say, partner"), the post was concerned of the change of meaning of the artificial call 1NT.

[Flame]

Im not sure you should choose either way.
I believe option a is bad, you dont need a natural 1nt, since you will most of the time get a good result by passing those hands.
Yet option 2 has a problem of playing wrong side 1nt when respondr is strong. (when he is weak you will just play a partscore in one of the 3 suits)
It could be wise to think of another completely different use to the 1nt, showing a kind of support hand, one example could be a hand between 2H and 3H.

[keylime]

I like the concept myself.

However I pass a lot of balanced 12 and 13's. I'm almost a throwback to the Roth-Stone era because of the proliferation of the "let's open all 11 counts and wonder why we go down 2 in 3NT" mindset.

I really would like a BBO-standard Precision, and SOON.

[han]

Tell that to Meckwell Wayne, or to the Hacketts. I just saw them on Vugraph against Japan, awesome. They were in there on every hand, bidding games on nothing, a 2S opening on Qxxxx (first seat, favorable vulnerability). They didn't only open on balanced 11 and 12 counts, they also opened on some 10-counts (and weaker in 3rd seat). They went down 2 in some game, and they made some games that shouldn't have been made. But when the smoke had cleared, Japan was obliterated. This was the most exciting match that I have seen so far this Bermuda Bowl.

Too bad the commentators were somewhat less inspired.

[MickyB]

Yes, that was an awesome set.

Using a 1N rebid as a naturalish maximum sounds reasonable.

[keylime]

I heard that they were just "epic". Then again I'm not Meckwell. :-)

They STILL got it. Never lost it.

[Chamaco]

Flame, on Oct 26 2005, 03:21 PM, said:

It could be wise to think of another completely different use to the 1nt, showing a kind of support hand, one example could be a hand between 2H and 3H.

I indeed cnsidered some special meaning like that (some kind of raise), mostly because the other 2 meanings did not seem satisfactory to me.

However, I am also concerned of frequency: I'd like to use te 1NT rebid for frequent hands.

=======================================

BTW, what do you think the following sequences should mean (based on usefulness and frequency of the handtype) ?
Bear in mind that:

a. opener has max 15 hcp
b. opener is unbalanced with 4+ diamonds
c. opener could double to show 3 card support


SEQUENCE 1- Opener cuebids opps suit

1D-(p)-1H-(1S)
2S


SEQUENCE 2- Opener jumps to 2NT

1D-(p)-1H-(1S)
2NT


SEQUENCE 3- Opener jbids a NON-Jump 2NT

1D-(p)-1H-(2x)
2NT

[Flame]

1nt as opposite to those other example bids you gave doesnt take you above 2M.
I dont know how strong your 1M response are ,traditional precision used 8+ but as far as i know, today not only you can bid with 6+ like 2/1 system, you can also bid with less when the hand belong to your opponents(this kind of psych is very usefull in prec because responder with 0 hcp know opponents has a game). This mean that 3M could be too high even if open is max, 1nt can help here, leaving the 3H and other above 2M for very very shapy hands.

[MickyB]

Jlall, on Oct 28 2005, 12:39 AM, said:

BTW I kind of like the structure of this system, though I've never liked the NT ranges being overloaded there are clearly a lot of benefits. 11-13, 14-16, 17-19 is nice, but when you play 12-15 and 16-19 (or 16-18 and force to 2N with 19, whichever your poison is) there seem to be many advantages like this.

Short club, transfer responses...

1C then complete the transfer = 11-13
1N = 14-16
1C then 1N = 17-20
2N = 21-22

Currently I open all 11-13 bals 1C so 1D:1M, 1N is artificial, but am wondering if weak NTs with 4 diamonds should open 1D instead. Either way, we get 1m:1M, 3m to be a normal jump rebid but with 3 card support, and 1m:1M, 2N to be a normal 3m rebid without three card support OR stronger - ie a GF single suiter.

[mike777]

Chamaco, on Oct 26 2005, 02:52 AM, said:

Hi all,
I'd appreciate a lot constructive suggestions/comments on the following issue :-)

We play Real Diamond Precision, with weak NT (good 12-15), and 1D is ALWAYS 4+ cards and unbalanced.
(For the sake of this discussion I'd like to skip the issue of hands with 5 bad clubs+ a 4cM + 3 diamonds. Let's just assume that 1D is always 4+ cards and unbalanced, the point is interesting, But I'd prefer to use other threads to discuss it)


Now, we use opener's 1NT rebid as a "catchall" to show hands that cannot or do not want to show a second suit at the 2 level; most times it will be hands with longer clubs than diamonds, or hands that do not want to reverse, including 4441's.

This way, the 2C rebid always shows 5+D and 4+C

Example (uncontested):

1D-1H
..-1NT = Canapè in minors (4D+5C)
..-2C = Natural, excluding canapè (5+D and 4+C)


1D-1S
..1NT =
...........a.Canapè in minors (4D+5C)
...........b.5D+4H (cannot reverse)
...........c.1=4=4=4 (cannot reverse)
..-2C = Natural, excluding canapè (5+D and 4+C)


THE QUESTION

The above scheme refers to uncontested auctions.
However, let's assume a sandwich overcall.

1D-(p)-1H-(1S)

Now, what should opener's 1NT rebid mean ?

I have thought of:
....a. "natural-ish" meaning. Of course the 1D opener is unbalanced so it cannot show a bal hand, but *might* show a hand with shortness in pard suit and a stopper (keep in mind we use support doubles so we might just pass to deny 3 cd support), typically a 4=1=5=3.
I am not sure this is the best way to use 1NT

....b. ignore interference, that is, use it to show a canapè hand. However, I hate to wrongside NT when opps have advertised a suit.

What do you think ?

Thanks in advance for any suggestions !!

As you know I play canape where the nt rebid shows exactly 5 in the first bid suit and 4-5 clubs...not sure why you think your method is better.

To answer your last question if 1s is bid on my right, I double to show penalty,,,5+ spades, 2clubs to show longer clubs and 1nt to show max opener with 5d and 4-5 clubs again. With minimum I would just pass with 5d and 4-5 clubs. btw 1h is weak relay type bid in my style often only 3+hearts

btw2 2d would show 6+d and 4-5 clubs and less than supermax, 2nt would be supermax 5D and 4-5 clubs and 3d with super max 6+D. 3c with supermax and 6+ clubs and 4+D. 1D could be 11-17 hcp.

[MickyB]

mike777, on Oct 28 2005, 01:11 AM, said:

As you know I play canape where the nt rebid shows exactly 5 in the first bid suit and 4-5 clubs...not sure why you think your method is better.

It matters less when opener is limited, but I prefer to give opener as much chance as possible to bid again, therefore I have a 2C rebid promise longer diamonds, encouraging responder to give false preference.

[hrothgar]

>Now, we use opener's 1NT rebid as a "catchall" to show hands that cannot or do
>not want to show a second suit at the 2 level; most times it will be hands with
>longer clubs than diamonds, or hands that do not want to reverse,
>including 4441's.

I don't this style. I think that it suffers from three very significant flaws:

1. I think that you are working to "solve" a non-existent problem. There are a lot of bidding systems out there that are very happy to tolerate some abiguity regarding the relative length of the the minors in auctions like 1♦ - 1N - 2♣. MOSCITO happily opens 1♠ holding unbalanced hands with 6 Clubs and 4 Diamonds

2. Your forced to pass good 11 counts and bad 12 counts holding balanced hands with 3+ Diamonds. If I'm playing strong club, I want to be opening my 12 counts. Thats the point of a strong club system after all. Even when passing your bad 12 counts, you still have a pretty wide range on your 1NT openings.

3. Your 1♠ rebid is severely underutilitzed. I'd be interested to contrast the frequency of your 1NT rebids as compared to your 1♥ rebids.

If I were worried about this problem - and I repeat, I'm not - I'd use the 1♠ rebid as my garbage bid and reserve 1NT as natural and non-forcing...

[Chamaco]

Quote

As you know I play canape where the nt rebid shows exactly 5 in the first bid suit and 4-5 clubs...not sure why you think your method is better.

Oh, no special reason, except a very good practical reason: my teammates prefer to play this way because they find it morer intuitive and easier to remember :-)
To me, it is only important to be able to discriminate, I'd play your method as well :-)

[Chamaco]

Quote

1.  I think that you are working to "solve" a non-existent problem. 

I agree that the relative length of minors is not a basic issue. My main purpose was rather to be able to show hearts in the sequence 1D:1S:?, without bypassing 2D.

However, it might seem I was trying hard to solve these -admittedly minor - issues, but this would not be quite true:
it's rather that, *having already chose to play 1D as natural*, we had a spere bid like 1NT and wanted to take advantage of this by using it for some hand types.

Quote

2. Your forced to pass good 11 counts and bad 12 counts holding balanced hands with 3+ Diamonds.  If I'm playing strong club, I want to be opening my 12 counts.  Thats the point of a strong club system after all.

Of course that's a price I am willing to pay, not opening bad 11-12 count.
But it's not clear whether this a winner or loser in the long run, against good opps.
When we do hold the balance of power, pard can bid and we'll show values, when we do not and opps buy the contract, at least declarer won't play double dummy knowing our shape/hcp.

Quote

  Even when passing your bad 12 counts, you still have a pretty wide range on your 1NT openings.

Our range is - actually - 13-15. Responder bids assuming opener has 13 at least, opener shall open most 12 counts with 2 aces.
We've been playing this way for quite some time now, and did not have great problems: on rare occasions we indeed ended in thin NT games, but- as far as i can see - many strong players nowadays seem to accecpt such occasional stretches.

On balance, I found the downsides of the NT range (passing bad 12, wide range of NT) being more than compensated by the fact of having REAL diamonds and an unbalanced hand: responder has a better idea of when competng for partscores and also in evaluating his hand for game/slam when the bidding is constructive.

Quote

3.  Your 1♠ rebid is severely underutilitzed.  I'd be interested to contrast the frequency of your 1Nt rebids as compared to your 1♥ rebids.

I like this suggestion
However for the moment we are going to stick with the 1NT catchall, which has the practical advantage of leaving all the other bids as natural: my teammates prefer that, for memory issues

[Gerben42]

Quote

SEQUENCE 1- Opener cuebids opps suit

1D-(p)-1H-(1S)
2S

SEQUENCE 2- Opener jumps to 2NT

1D-(p)-1H-(1S)
2NT


SEQUENCE 3- Opener jbids a NON-Jump 2NT

1D-(p)-1H-(2x)
2NT

Sequence 1: 4-card support and singleton ♠

Sequence 2: 2NT and 3♦ here both show 6♦ and maximum, use this to distinguish between 3-card support and not 3-card support for ♥.

Sequence 3: As sequence 2