[mrdct]

DrTodd13, on Nov 7 2005, 07:57 PM, said:

You never have a "right" to use or take anything belonging to someone else.

Wrong. In many jurisdictions there are aspects of property law that do give certain people the right to use or take property belonging to other parties. Concepts such as "squatters' rights" come to mind. You could also examine the process by which entire continents have been taken from indigenous peoples for European settlement.

DrTodd13, on Nov 7 2005, 07:57 PM, said:

Fred would be within his rights if he banned the French or women from BBO.

Wrong. He would be in serious breach of anti-discrimination and human rights laws in many jurisdictions in which BBO operates.

[han]

That echonomic stuff was way over my hat, but I agree with the rest that the gnome wrote.

[DrTodd13]

mrdct, on Nov 7 2005, 06:30 PM, said:

DrTodd13, on Nov 7 2005, 07:57 PM, said:

You never have a "right" to use or take anything belonging to someone else.

Wrong. In many jurisdictions there are aspects of property law that do give certain people the right to use or take property belonging to other parties. Concepts such as "squatters' rights" come to mind. You could also examine the process by which entire continents have been taken from indigenous peoples for European settlement.

DrTodd13, on Nov 7 2005, 07:57 PM, said:

Fred would be within his rights if he banned the French or women from BBO.

Wrong. He would be in serious breach of anti-discrimination and human rights laws in many jurisdictions in which BBO operates.

See...this is a perfect example of how brainwashed people are. Government does not give rights and take rights away. Just because something is enshrined in "law" does not make it right. All that means is that a bunch of people have agreed to it. Given people's tendencies it is no wonder the vast majority of laws actually violate people's right.

On the matter of anti-discrimation laws, I never said Fred wouldn't be breaking any laws. I'm only claiming that it is your right to serve or not serve anyone you wish given the right to free association. To the degree that the government forces people to employ or serve those whom they would rather not, the government is violates the rights of those owners.

You only believe in freedom if you believe in the freedom for people to be miserable asses. If you won't grant people this freedom then you're nothing more than a bully who wants to force others to live as they see fit.

[mrdct]

DrTodd13, on Nov 8 2005, 04:17 AM, said:

Government does not give rights and take rights away.

They do in my experience.

[luke warm]

i think there's a difference between what todd is saying (words like 'inalienable' come to mind) and what you're saying... also, not to put words in his mouth, governments only take (or give) as much as allowed by the governed

so in that sense, we take away or grant rights to ourselves, governments are just the means by which we accomplish this