[Wackojack]

I live deep in Acol territory. Reading your forum topics regularly, I am slowly beginning to appreciated the virtues of 2/1 GF, so have decided to learn it, hopefully sticking fairly closely to the BBO advanced system. One of the culture changes I have had to adapt to is the abandonment of "up-the-line" bidding with balanced hands. I have learned to use 2-way check-back successfully. However, one question springs to mind. It is: In what circumstances should I respond 1 diamond to partners 1 club opening, when I have a 4-card major suit? Do I have to have GF values? Do I have to be unbalanced? Could I miss a diamond suit fit if I prefer responding a 4-card major when I have 5+ diamonds?

I would be grateful for your views.

[Gerben42]

There are many different styles here. The one I like is to bid the major unless the ♦ are longer or if you can force to game.

[mr1303]

Yes, basically you should respond in the major if the auction might proceed:

1C 1D
1NT

and you don't have enough to now bid 2H/S, since partner will bypass a major to rebid in NT if he's balanced.

Having said that, I would draw the line somewhere. Holding

Kx
xxxx
KQJxxx
x

I would respond 1D and ignore the heart suit unless partner could bid it himself.

[Chamaco]

Hi Wacko. :-)

First of all, the stile in responding 1 over 1 after a 1m opening is not strictly related to 2/1, e.g. you can choose to incorporate it in other 5 card major systems, if you like.

Secondly, one of the most common "major-first" style of responding to 1C is called "Walsh", and you can find quite a bit of stuff either here on the BBF or by just "Googling" :-)

[helene_t]

Playing 2-way checkback, you can transfer to diamonds after partner's 1NT rebid, showing a weak hand with longer diamonds. With that agreement, it makes sense only to bid diamonds if you have a strong hand.

A "strong" hand is usually interpreted as GF, but it is playable to bid reverse as responder with only invitational values, if you and partner agree to do so. However, you're usually not interested in a diamonds contract with less than slamish values, and you don't have to bid diamonds if you don't want to play in diamonds.

Whether you bid diamonds first with balanced hands depends on you minor suit opening agreements. If you "always" open 1♦ with both minors, it makes little sense to show a 4-card diamonds. Also, if partner's 1NT rebid systematically bypasses a major (Walsh), you should bid your major suit imediately if possible so that you don't have to reveal more than necessary about opener's hand (if you start with diamonds you would have to do check-back afterwards).

Some people prefer to play 4-cards up the line, that's playable as well. But even then you will often have to bid 1♠ bypassing longer diamonds because finding the spades fit will conflict with FSF. Besides, 1♠ preempts an enemy 1♥ bid. (A minority viewpoint, advocated by Danny Kleinmann, is that a 1♠ response shows five).

With a weak hand and spades shortness you may prefer to bid the better of your red suits, based on the idea that if you have a hearts fit the opps wil outbid you is spades in which case you want to help partner to the best lead.

With a weak hand you can also bid 1♦ on a fony suit without a major suit, in order to right-side a notrump contract.

[Fluffy]

There are 2 ways to play walsh:

with limit hands you bid 1♦:

These means after the bidding goes 1♣-1♦-1NT, 2♣ is stayman, can have 5♦ if the hand is only 10-11. The answers are 2♦ minimum, no majors, 2♥ nat, 2♠ nat and 2NT maximum.

with GF values you bid 1♦: Tehn 2♣ stayman later is GF, and is used with 4♦+4M only.

[luke warm]

the way i play walsh is, i would rarely bid my diamonds before a major with a hand that's worth only one bid... it's no risk, as helene said, because i can always bid 2c over 1nt and pass partner's forced 2d bid (surely he'd have supported my major with 4)

i'd bid the major even if 4/6 and a weak hand... so i'd bid diamonds (usually) only if i have nothing else to bid or if i have a "responsive reverse" (10/11+)

[mike777]

Good luck, this is a hot issue and as you can see many people play it many ways.
1) You need to decide if 2/1 is 100% game force. I prefer yes, but this is minority view.
2) If you can live with the problem of 4 card major and longer minor invite hands then play Walsh this way. You will only bid 1D after 1club with no 4 card major or game force 100%. 1c=1h=1s or 1d=1h=1s does not promise an unbalanced hand. But 1c=1d=1h(1s) does.
3) You can play 2 way checkback or xyz to help solve the 4 card major, longer minor invite hands or you rebid 2nt or as with many problem hands the opp will bid about 60% of the time and let you just bid your hand natural. There is no fully satisfactory solution to this problem but I have found it a problem more so in theory than at the table.
4) Another issue you will have to decide is after a 2/1, do you bid shape or strength. Most play rebid of 2 of a major only promises 5 cards and minimum hand. I prefer it to show 6 cards and just bid out my shape with any strength. Again this is minority viewpoint.
5) Perhaps most important you will need to decide how weak you can open in first and second seat and therefore how strong a 2/1 bid promises. Again room for a lot of debate here.

Good luck and enjoy.

[Wackojack]

Thanks for the suggestions. for the time being we will play:
2/1 is unconditional GF and repeat of major is a waiting bid.
Play 2-way checkback after rebid of 1NT
Not xyz not Walsh and 1x-1y-1z = unbalanced
Play NMF after rebid of 1m-1M- 2NT
After 1C, responder with 5xD or more and a 4M will only bid 1D with GF values. I have asked my partner if he can think of any hands with less than GF values where a response of 1D might be advantageous

[FrancesHinden]

I suppose I could add one comment.

No-one that I can see has suggested the way I play, which is holding 5 diamonds and a 4CM to respond 1D on a hand worth an invite after a 1NT response.

I don't see why you need to have a game force to respond 1D: where do you lose out if you have invitational values?

The gain, of course, is to find 9+ card diamond fits rather than playing in 1NT or your Moysian major suit fit. Even at matchpoints, +130 outscores +110 or +120.

The other gain is to make it easier to find diamond slams opposite a strong hand, and it also makes major suit slam bidding easier, as responder's shape is better defined.

[EricK]

FrancesHinden, on Oct 26 2005, 04:59 PM, said:

I suppose I could add one comment.

No-one that I can see has suggested the way I play, which is holding 5 diamonds and a 4CM to respond 1D on a hand worth an invite after a 1NT response.

I don't see why you need to have a game force to respond 1D: where do you lose out if you have invitational values?

The gain, of course, is to find 9+ card diamond fits rather than playing in 1NT or your Moysian major suit fit. Even at matchpoints, +130 outscores +110 or +120.

The other gain is to make it easier to find diamond slams opposite a strong hand, and it also makes major suit slam bidding easier, as responder's shape is better defined.

As usual, Frances and I are in agreement.

I suspect it is to do with the land of our birth. As Bertrand Russell said, "John Locke invented common sense and only Englishmen have had it ever since." (although, if he were around today, I suppose he would use a non-gender-specific phrase such as "the English")

[luke warm]

FrancesHinden, on Oct 26 2005, 11:59 AM, said:

I don't see why you need to have a game force to respond 1D: where do you lose out if you have invitational values?

nothing at all, which is why i don't use 1D with gf only.. the "responsive reverse" i spoke of is usually 10/11 or more

[han]

Same here, except that I don't reverse with the invitational hand over 1C-1D-1NT, but I use XYZ (or 2-way checkback if you wish) to show 4-5 with exactly invitational strength. This has the added advantage of being able to play in 2M as well as using the real reverse to show GF values.

[mikeh]

FrancesHinden, on Oct 26 2005, 11:59 AM, said:

I suppose I could add one comment.

No-one that I can see has suggested the way I play, which is holding 5 diamonds and a 4CM to respond 1D on a hand worth an invite after a 1NT response.

I don't see why you need to have a game force to respond 1D: where do you lose out if you have invitational values?

The gain, of course, is to find 9+ card diamond fits rather than playing in 1NT or your Moysian major suit fit. Even at matchpoints, +130 outscores +110 or +120.

The other gain is to make it easier to find diamond slams opposite a strong hand, and it also makes major suit slam bidding easier, as responder's shape is better defined.

The extent to which this method gains from finding a 9 card ♦ fit is dependent upon your style of opening with 4=4 in the minors (or 4=5). I am a strong (fervent) believer in opening 1♦ with 4=4 (altho almost equally strong for 1♣ with 4=5), so for me, there is relatively little risk of missing the ♦ fit, compared to the other school of thought.

Having said that, there seems to be little theoretical downside to 1♣ 1♦ 1N 2M being invitational or better: and this is consistent with my preference of 1m 1♥ 1N 2♠ being invitational (with 4=4 in majors, other shapes go through 2♣ first).

I do play this method with one partner. Others bypass ♦ unless strong enough to force to game.

One downside to the approach is that you lose the preemptive effect of a 1♠ response: 4th chair may be able to afford 1♥ when he could not afford 2♥, but this is a low-frequency cost.

The other arises in the auction: 1♣ 1♦ 1♥

I like 1♠ as gameforce, neither showing nor denying ♠ (I have never understood using 2♠ here as 4th suit, gobbling your own bidding space for little purpose), and this cannot work... it requires adjustments.

These adjustments can certainly be made.

[Wackojack]

Hannie, on Oct 26 2005, 01:19 PM, said:

Same here, except that I don't reverse with the invitational hand over 1C-1D-1NT, but I use XYZ (or 2-way checkback if you wish) to show 4-5 with exactly invitational strength. This has the added advantage of being able to play in 2M as well as using the real reverse to show GF values.

Hi Hannie,
I if am understanding you:
1C- 1D
1NT-2C (relay to 2D)
2D- 2M = 45 invit

1C- 1D
1NT-2M = 45 GF

This looks good to me. However, what is the difference between:

1C-1D
1NT-2C
2D-2NT

and
1C-1D
1NT-2NT?

[mike777]

Wackojack, on Oct 28 2005, 02:43 PM, said:

Hannie, on Oct 26 2005, 01:19 PM, said:

Same here, except that I don't reverse with the invitational hand over 1C-1D-1NT, but I use XYZ (or 2-way checkback if you wish) to show 4-5 with exactly invitational strength. This has the added advantage of being able to play in 2M as well as using the real reverse to show GF values.

Hi Hannie,
I if am understanding you:
1C- 1D
1NT-2C (relay to 2D)
2D- 2M = 45 invit

1C- 1D
1NT-2M = 45 GF

This looks good to me. However, what is the difference between:

1C-1D
1NT-2C
2D-2NT

and
1C-1D
1NT-2NT?

Many play this difference to mean many things. Pick one and agree with partner.
I play:

1m=1M=1nt=2nt is that you bid 2nt directly with a more square hand(stuff in the unbids) that would never want to be in a suit..but you ticktock with something that is the right strength, but isn't so strong in the unbids and therefore probably having good support for opener's minor. So if opener is on a minimum with length in her own suit, she can bail back to 3 of her minor.

btw another issue to discuss is does 2clubs always force 2d or does partner only bid 2d when they deny 3 card support for your major?

I play the priority is to show your 3 card support but believe that is a minority viewpoint. In that style opener can rebid 2 of a major with a minimum and responder can pass.
1c=1s
1nt=2c
2s=pass


btw2 this brings up the issue of:
1c=1s
1nt=2h and how do you want to play that compared to going through 2c invite checkback.

[Wackojack]

[quote name='mike777' date='Oct 28 2005, 03:02 PM']
[/QUOTE]
Many play this difference to mean many things. Pick one and agree with partner.
I play:

1m=1M=1nt=2nt is that you bid 2nt directly with a more square hand(stuff in the unbids) that would never want to be in a suit..but you ticktock with something that is the right strength, but isn't so strong in the unbids and therefore probably having good support for opener's minor. So if opener is on a minimum with length in her own suit, she can bail back to 3 of her minor.

btw another issue to discuss is does 2clubs always force 2d or does partner only bid 2d when they deny 3 card support for your major?

I play the priority is to show your 3 card support but believe that is a minority viewpoint. In that style opener can rebid 2 of a major with a minimum and responder can pass.
1c=1s
1nt=2c
2s=pass


btw2 this brings up the issue of:
1c=1s
1nt=2h and how do you want to play that compared to going through 2c invite checkback.[/QUOTE]

Thanks MIke: So far I like:

1m-1M- 1NT-2C-2D-2NT = no trump invite
1m-1M-1NT-2NT= relay to 3C.
Then pass = weak clubs
3D= 4-4-1-4 invit
3H = 4-1-4-4 invit
3S = 1-4-4-4
3NT = 4-4-4-1

With regard to after 1m-1M-1NT then if you play 2-way check back, where then 2C introduces invitational hands, 2D game force hands. So 1m-1M-1NT-2OM, would logically be weak 5-5 or 5-6 no game interest.


Obviously following 1C-1D-1NT, 4441 hands are not applicable, so the meaning you suggested looks OK


Oh! It has just occurred to me that 2 similar sequences would then have very different meanings

1C-1D-1NT-2H is GF at least 45 in red suits
1C-1S-1NT-2H is very weak 55 in majors.

[mike777]

Note with preemptive/weak hands you want to get high fast not slow.

I play reverse flannery so:
1minor=2hearts=weak 4+h and 5+ spades so
using xyz:
1m=1s
1nt=2h is invite.

also again with weak hands I want to get there fast so:
1c=1s
1nt=3c to play, get there fast not slow.

My guess is as long as you agree it will matter very little.

[luke warm]

Wackojack, on Oct 28 2005, 04:08 PM, said:

Oh!  It has just occurred to me that 2 similar sequences would then have very different meanings

1C-1D-1NT-2H is GF at least 45 in red suits
1C-1S-1NT-2H  is very weak 55 in majors.

after

1c : 1d
1nt : 2d (gf)

opener is required to bid a 4cM if he has one anyway, so playing 2M/1nt as a gf doesn't seem to do much

mike said:

I play reverse flannery so:
1minor=2hearts=weak 4+h and 5+ spades so
using xyz:
1m=1s
1nt=2h is invite.

what does this gain over
1m : 1s
1nt : 2c
2d : 2h
?

mike said:

1c=1s
1nt=3c to play, get there fast not slow.

was a big debate on bbf about 3c playing xyz not too long ago... some play it as forcing (all 3 bids), some as 3c the only non-force... i don't remember the concensus

[mike777]

luke warm, on Oct 28 2005, 04:36 PM, said:

[

mike said:

I play reverse flannery so:
1minor=2hearts=weak 4+h and 5+ spades so
using xyz:
1m=1s
1nt=2h is invite.

what does this gain over
1m : 1s
1nt : 2c
2d : 2h
?

Keep in mind over:
1m=1s
1nt=2c
?

I play opener rebids 2s or 3s with 3 card support. 2c is not puppet to 2d 100%.

So here with 2clubs partner does not have 4hearts or very seldom but does with:
1m=1s
1nt=2h