[lenze]

MPs

As south, dealer, you hold

S - 984
H - AQ6
D - AK9842
C - A

The auction proceeds

1D-(P)-1H-(P)-3D-(P)-3NT-(P)-?????

Do you pass or try 4H????

And why???

[hrothgar]

The hand only has 12 cards
I am assuming that the hand has a 6th diamond
(Without a 6th diamond the 3D bid is incomprehensible)

Personally, I don't like the 3D rebid
It destroys your ability explore for game intelligently.

I think that a 2NT rebid is much better, intending to show heart tolerance on your next bid.

[lenze]

Thanks for your reply, and yes there was a sixth diamond. I corrected the post.
So if you bid 2NT, which I believe is incorrect, and partner raises to 3NT. What do you do?

[luis]

Pass.
When pd wants to play 3nt even if I have 3h he bids 3nt so I pass when he bids 3nt no matter if I have 1,2 or three hearts. This is needed or our bidding will be just chaotic. What do you have to do when you want to play 3nt? With intention to play 4h instead of 3nt pd can bid 3s, choice of games in this situation.

About the bidding I might have just bid a forcing 1s instead of 3d just to preserve some room for exploration if he bids 4s the moysian will be fine if not I can show my 3 cards in hearts and thus the singleton club in my next bid. If pd supports diammonds I can cuebid etc. I think 1s is the flexible response. 2nt with a singleton club is not an option to me.

[lenze]

Quote

About the bidding I might have just bid a forcing 1s instead of 3d just to preserve some room for exploration if he bids 4s the moysian will be fine if not I can show my 3 cards in hearts and thus the singleton club in my next bid. If pd supports diammonds I can cuebid etc. I think 1s is the flexible response. 2nt with a singleton club is not an option to me.

Luis: How can 1S be right? After 1S, if partner bids NT, DOES YOUR SIDE HAVE A SPADE STOPPER? Also, why suppress this excellent diamond suit, which could easily produce a slam?

[hrothgar]

I have an easy pass over 3NT
If partner cared whether I had 3 card heart support would have temporized over 2NT.

As to whether or not people like the 2NT rebid

I would have happily opened 1N with

xxx
KJx
AKT952
A

I don't see any reason not to rebid 2NT with a stronger hand.

A 1S rebid looks highly problematic to me.

You're far too strong for your bid
You're missing a spade
The Spades that you do have aren't too good

2NT is a distortion, but far less of one that 1S

[luis]

Quote

Quote

About the bidding I might have just bid a forcing 1s instead of 3d just to preserve some room for exploration if he bids 4s the moysian will be fine if not I can show my 3 cards in hearts and thus the singleton club in my next bid. If pd supports diammonds I can cuebid etc. I think 1s is the flexible response. 2nt with a singleton club is not an option to me.

Luis: How can 1S be right? After 1S, if partner bids NT, DOES YOUR SIDE HAVE A SPADE STOPPER? Also, why suppress this excellent diamond suit, which could easily produce a slam?

As far as I know 1s does not promise a stopper just 4 cards. So I have just one spade less than expected, that is compensated with the ruffing value of the singleton club. If pd bids 1nt or 2nt I bid 2h or 3h ending a very reasonable description of my hand and depicting the singleton club.
Then pd may choose our best game based in how many hearts he have and the spots in clubs.
1s is forcing and unlimited.

[hrothgar]

If 1S is "forcing and unlimited", then what does the auction

1D - 1H
2S

show?

Second question

Are you seriously advocating the auction

1D - 1H
1S - 1N
2H

With this hand?

This sounds like a simple preference to me.
Partner is perfectly entitled to pass.

[irg20]

In both uncontested auctions 1D - 1H - 3D - 3NT and 1D - 1H - 2NT - 3NT I think that I have a pass.

I do not think this hand is a 1S rebid as the way I play (fairly simply!) this is not absolutely forcing and 1S could prove to be a fairly unpleasant situation (opposite something such as a minimum 3=4=1=5 or other less common handtypes).

Whilst putting more handtypes (classically considered to be a 3m rebid) in 2NT rebid seems to be an increasing trend we probably need some reasonable methods to sort these out (fairly easy to think of something staymanic here).

I'm not 100% convinced that this is an ideal 2NT rebid (though freely admit that I might make this call):

The hand shape and honour structure cry out for this hand to be played in a suit.

2NT routinely wrongsides NT contracts with the hypothetical S stop in partners hand in the auction 1D - 1H - 2NT - 3NT.

...Maybe I prefer the original auction with a pass of 3NT as at least I haven't promised stuff I haven't got...

Ian

PS I'm not sure XXX KJx AKxxxx A is a strong NT as opening 1D and raising 1M to 2M is an option. Again the hand cries out to be played in a suit contract.

[inquiry]

MPs
S - 984
H - AQ6
D - AK9842
C - A

The auction 1D-(P)-1H-(P)-3D-(P)-3NT-(P)-?????
Do you pass or try 4H???? And why???


At imps, I would pass 3NT. At matchpoints, I would bid 4H's. Why 4H's, I hope to make one, maybe two extra tricks with either club ruffs, or by setting up diamonds, with the ability to ruff clubs keeping them from running clubs on me. The problem as others noted is the 3D rebid.

Now to the real question that should be asked... what should I bid on this hand after I hear partner bid 1HEART.

2H (not really discussed much) is an underbid. 3D right on diamond legnth ignores what is probably the best suit to play in at matchpoints, which is hearts. 3H is about right on stregnth, it is just a heart short. But if you are going to bid 3D then overrule parnter's 3NT, you probably SHOULD NOT BID 3D intially. Which indeed, I would not have bid.

So what choices are there? I happen to like Luis's suggestion of 1S, even though I am not certain this is actually really forcing, I would be very surprised if partner passes (some non-forcing bids are essentially never passed). The, like Luis, I plan on showing my heart support next.

I would never rebid 2NT over 1H on this hand (although I might open it 1NT). So here are my rebids over 1H, in order of preference....

1S - 100
3H - 95
2H - 60
4C - 30
3D - 30
4D - 25
2N - 20
2D - 10
Pass - 0

[lenze]

So you don’t rebid 3D??

You bid 3H over 1H and partner bids 4H holding

Ax
Kxxx
Jxxx
xxx

You have just arrived in a contract that may go down when you are cold for 6 Diamonds!!!

[hrothgar]

I would never rebid 2NT over 1H on this hand (although I might open it 1NT). So here are my rebids over 1H, in order of preference....

Ben, this comment makes no sense to me:

If you are willing to entertain a 1NT opening, then you accept that it might be best to treat this as a balanced hand.

However, I find it VERY hard to beleive that you could seriously consider this hand to be worth 15-17 HCP.
This hand looks closer to a 2NT opening than 1NT. The K+R hand evaluator agrees, evaluating this hand as 19.85 HCP.

[the hog]

Lenze, what does 3D mean here. I do not like this auction.
As I play largely forcing C systems, my 2N bid shows 3 card support for pd and 6 good Ds, (3D denies 3 card support). Obviously this is not available here.
I am not bidding 1S on 3 poop. This is too misdescriptive; though I agree with Luis that this should be 100% forcing. - (see big argument recently in rgb on this)

What is left? 2C - as bad as 1S, 3D? might lose the H fit. I guess I'm stuck with 2N, though without specifically the above agreement I don't like it much. "Bridge World Hand of Death" strikes again.

And over 3NT? I pass.

[mishovnbg]

Hi all!
In modern bridge bidding 3HE rebid after 3DI is forcing, so pass over 3NT is easy.
You will have all time problems, if you bided high with strong undefined hands. One solution, like Luis and Ben is to use "lie", because natural bidding is flexible. But same style of bidding is only for regular partners in my opinion. Another solution is to use checkbacks, like after 1NT rebid. You will never play score 2CL, but your bidding in game/slam zone will improve more than you can expect.
Example using 2 way check back:
1DI-1HE, ?
2CL: pupet for 2DI, to inv hand
2DI: GF, any
Misho

[EricK]

Quote

Lenze, what does 3D mean here. I do not like this auction.
As I play largely forcing C systems, my 2N bid shows 3 card support for pd and 6 good Ds, (3D denies 3 card support). Obviously this is not available here.

In "Polish Club" by Matula, he describes something similar except 3D shows 3 card support and 2NT denies it.

Do you think it matters which way round you play them?

Eric

[the hog]

Actually we DO play it the other way around, Eric, I mistyped my response. I initially wondered whether it made a difference or not. The Swedes playing Svan play 2NT to show the 3 card raise OR excellent 4 card support, (3C is a form of relay), and 1D 1H 3D denies 3 card support. To me this seems more intuitive.

However someone pointed out to me that if 3N is going to be the right contract, and if responder has only a 4 card suit, then it is probably right that responder play 3N. Opener will have 6 cards in the opened suit and 3 cards in support of responder's suit, leaving only 4 others. It is more likely that 3D showing support right sides a 3N contract. I guess that makes sense, though I wonder if there is much in it.

[Codo]

Hi all,

I don`t understand the rumours at all. You all discuss, which is the smallest lie. Why? Here where I play, it is easy, it is like Misho wrote: If pd wants to play 4 Heart, he can bid it. If he wants to give me the choice, he can bid 3 Heart. There is nearly no sense to play this bid non-forcing. Especially not, if you play weak jumps in your own bidding, so that a weak hand with hearts is shown directly with 1 D-2H.
But even with standard methods, 3 Heart here is 1000 % forcing.
(3 Spades too, but asking for stopper, not for 3 Heart).

Kind Regards

Roland

[Free]

If you bid 4H after the 3NT, what will opponents lead? Trump! So your stiff isn't that great. I just pass.

About the auction, I play a modified polish club system, so the system is similar to what The_Hog wrote (2NT = with 3-card support, 3D = without 3-card support). Then partner can choose what he thinks is best. But frankly, I might consider a 1NT-opening: 15HCP, a long suit, control C and Major-tollerance...

[easy]

i guess i mite as well put my 2 cents worth in this discussion.

1. value of hand.... before the bidding i would think this hand is a flawed 2nt rebid.
2. after pard responds a heart i will tell a white lie and rebid 1s. I dont like 2nt...not because of the singleton club A but because with 3 small spades i could be wrong siding the contract. I hate 3d because imho the hand is MUCH to good for 3d. (remove the qh and i would rebid 3d and ) If pard rebids 1nt im planning to bid 2h.

I noted someone's comment that a rebid of 2h in this situation simply shows a preference. No one objects to that statement?? 2h imho clearly shows an unbalanced hand with interest in playing game with hearts being one of the options. If i held a hand that was only taking a preference to hearts such as xxxx kqx aqxxx x i think i would either raise hearts immediately or pass 1nt.

3. hum, is 2h after pards rebid of 1nt enough? If my club A were the spade A i would say NO.Since the stiff ace of clubs is not carrying its full weight i will settle for a 2h bid even though my hand has improved in value when pard bid 1h.The hand was originally a 5 loser 17 count now i would guess that it has become a 4 loser hand.

Well that's my take on this hand.

Btw if i had rebid 3d and pard bid 3n i would pass. Had partner wanted to know my heart holding he could have inquired. I dont care if we are playiing imps or mp. I think pulling 3nt to 4H is taking much to big a position. Bridge is a partnership game and pard said " i think 3nt is the correct spot pard"There is nothing about my hand to make me think i should overule my partner.(other than the fact that i have extra's for my 3d bid)

[hrothgar]

From my persepctive, the strangest thing about this discussion is the number of people who keep describing

S - 984
H - AQ6
D - AK9842
C - A

as a 17 HCP hand.

As noted earlier, this hand evaluates as 19.85 HCP using the Kaplan-Rubens Point count algorithm.

Easy notes that the singleton Ace of Clubs needs to be downgraded, however, the upgrades for AK sixth in Diamonds and the mutually supporting AQ of Hearts more than outweight this.

Its worth noting how the evaluation of the hands chancge slightly by moving a few honors arround. Consider:

A84 AQ6 AK9842 9 = 20.5 HCP
A84 Q96 AK9842 A = 19.45 HCP
A84 AQ6 K98642 A = 18.5