[mike777]

Scoring: IMP

1S=5D=?

---

a*) Your bid choice and why?
Assume you play 14-16 1NT if need be.
Opener will never have 18-19 balanced on this auction.

b*) If you pass assume partner will balance with double, your bid now?

[Winstonm]

My insticts tell me to bid, so pass must be right the first time.

Again, I want to bid so pass must also be right the second time.

Winston

[Trpltrbl]

6-5 Come alive.
I will bid 5♥.
I have nice offensive hand, defense I have maybe 1 trick.
My pd's tend to raise me to slam when they have nice hand and ♥ fit and no wasted ♦ values.
♠AKTxx
♥KTxx
♦xx
♣Ax
would be a nice minimum hand.

GBB

[luke warm]

at all white, i'd pass the first time... then i'd bid 5H

[han]

I also pass the first time, bid 5H the second time.

[000002]

Pass is a forcing bidding

[mikeh]

000002, on Oct 16 2005, 09:15 PM, said:

Pass is a forcing bidding

why? On any given hand, the odds are surely that the opps cannot take 11 tricks. However, the fact that they bid 5♦ suggests that maybe they can. If pass is forcing, what would you bid with xx xxxxxx x xxxx?

On this posted hand, I pass and then bid 5♥

5♥ to start with is simply too much of an overbid. Yes, partner could have the magic hand, but experience suggests that he rarely does.

Double by him is not just increasing the penalty. He has cards. So while 5♥ may be wrong, it seems correct.

Partner can deduce that I have a shapely offensive hand (else I would pass the double. I am bidding with expectations of making, so he might (but probably won't ) raise. AKJxx KQx x Axxx is enough for him to raise on this auction.

[Fluffy]

Pass and then.... 5♥ unless it took me too much time, then I will have to bid 6 to avoid partner being punished for bidding 6.

[000002]

mikeh, on Oct 16 2005, 11:24 PM, said:

000002, on Oct 16 2005, 09:15 PM, said:

Pass is a forcing bidding

why? On any given hand, the odds are surely that the opps cannot take 11 tricks. However, the fact that they bid 5♦ suggests that maybe they can. If pass is forcing, what would you bid with xx xxxxxx x xxxx?

On this posted hand, I pass and then bid 5♥

5♥ to start with is simply too much of an overbid. Yes, partner could have the magic hand, but experience suggests that he rarely does.

Double by him is not just increasing the penalty. He has cards. So while 5♥ may be wrong, it seems correct.

Partner can deduce that I have a shapely offensive hand (else I would pass the double. I am bidding with expectations of making, so he might (but probably won't ) raise. AKJxx KQx x Axxx is enough for him to raise on this auction.

yes.PASS is forcing bidding.
ofcz,you will hold a hand with ZERO hcp . then ,the most likely is you have to pass your partner's double re-open. it is homology over 95%.

the disadvantage is that we'll lose a game when 5♦ can be made up(+),as you know,the good 5♦ preempt is 4NT(or 4♠),and pass is a poor hand in this case.

regards

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

5H.

Pass is not forcing, nobody knows, what the
5D bidders, except the guy, who made the bid.

Just ask yourself, if

1S - (3H) - ...

or

1S - (4H) - ...

would create a forcing pass.

The answer is definitive no, just because
the preempt occurred on the 5 level does
not make the pass forcing.

The 5D bid could well be made with the
intention to make, giving up on an unlikely
slam, ... the other side opened.

I am all for playing aggressive agreements
regarding forcing pass, but playing forcing pass
in this situation is ...


With kind regards
Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

everybody who passes now, will most likely
find themself on lead against 5D.

Do you really expect partner with a flat 12-14
count to double?

Marlowe

[joker_gib]

I also pass and will bid 5♥ if partner does something.

Of course, pass is non forcing.

P_Marlowe, on Oct 18 2005, 09:46 AM, said:

Do you really expect partner with a flat 12-14
count to double?

No and I hope he won't double as they have 5♦ !

Alain

[paulg]

My partnership agreement in this situation is:

A pass is forcing, by opener or responder, when an opponent unilaterally bids at the 5-level at the first opportunity, e.g., 1X-(5Y) and 1X-(P)-1Y-(5Z)

In these sequences:

• Double shows cards and a desire to defend
  
• Pass forces double
  
• Immediate bids show tolerance with opener's suit
  
• Pass then bid shows a single suiter
  
• Immediate 5NT shows two places to play including partner's suit (i.e., better than just tolerance)
  
• Pass then 5NT shows two places to play other than partner's suit.

So on this hand I'd bid 5♥ immediately, although with trepidation.

We mostly play IMPs, so the downside of the forcing pass is small compared to the advantage of having double the number of bids available. However we play the same at matchpoints too.

Paul

[mikeh]

000002, on Oct 18 2005, 02:28 AM, said:

as you know,the good 5♦ preempt is 4NT(or 4♠),and pass is a poor hand in this case.

I don't know that 4N shows a good minor two-suiter, not a good 5♦ bid. I must admit that I have never discussed what 4♠ shows
I would not have thought that it shows a good 5♦ opener had partner sprung it on me unannounced. There is a case to be made that it is a good 5-level single-suiter, altho why ♦ and not ♣ is unclear: I assume that it shows one or the other and partner can bid 4N (or 5♣) to find out.

However, I suspect that the poster was not playing against anyone using that method. So 5♦ could be almost anything. Obviously one does not base one's methods on the assumption that the 5♦ bidder may have 11 tricks: but one should (in my view) consider the possibility that his partner may help him out: especially if you have nothing at all.

I understand the logic behind playing a forcing pass: I just disagree with a method that absolutely assures you of a certain number of terrible results while (in my view) offering only a small increase in your chances of getting good ones.

[Al_U_Card]

Looks like the supposition is that the 5D bidder is showing you your game values (even if you haven't had a chance to express them yet). It is an interesting treatment, but I would still consider it NF. Once pard doubles to say, if your 7 count is random then pass, if it is interesting then bid.....5H becomes clear

[han]

I think that the idea is not that you necessarily have values for game. If you play pass as forcing then you create more different auctions, and you can more efficiently use the little room that is left.

This idea is well known to many strong clubbers. I think that you really have to play pass as forcing over 1C-(pass)-1D-(3S)-??. Here the partnership could have as few as 16 pts together, but playing a forcing pass allows you to show many more hand patterns. A consequence of this treatment is that you sometimes have to make close doubles or risk playing in a bad spot when you'd rather defend 3S undoubled.

The same idea could apply over 1M-(5D)-.. I think that you'd have tyo play this for a while before you could judge whether this is a good idea or not.

[Al_U_Card]

Hannie, on Oct 18 2005, 02:40 PM, said:

I think that the idea is not that you necessarily have values for game. If you play pass as forcing then you create more different auctions, and you can more efficiently use the little room that is left.

Except, perhaps, when you need to pass to show your hand........well defined sequences really need well-defined circumstances and not just "all the time".