[cherdano]

Almost all agreed in BPO poll 006F that after 1♦-(4♥), 4NT is takeout for the minors.

What about the auction 1♠-(4♦)-? What is the best meaning here?
(And which meaning would you expect when playing with an advanced/expert pickup partner?) Assume that you play double as negative here.

Arend

[pclayton]

I'm going to check with my regular pard on this one but, I think 4N should be RKCB.

We play negative doubles specifically through 4♦ so I can double (although I might not want to) with ♥ + ♣ 2 suiters.

[Double !]

RKC for spades

Neg X for 2-suiter.

Interesting question: how would you play a bid of 5 diamonds? Exclusion RKC? Cue bid/ control? RKC and make 4NT takeout?

Forum's been getting more interesting lately. Less focus on toys (systems/ conventions, and I like toys), and more focus on handling situations and judgment/ decision-making.

DHL

[Walddk]

RKCB for spades. If I have hearts I bid them, if I have clubs I bid them, and if I have both I double. All situations covered, so 4NT must be SchwarzWald (German for Blackwood).

Roland

[whereagles]

I think all auctions of type

1x (4y) 4NT

should be 'schwarzwald'

The reason being if you want pard to bid a suit, you double for take-out. Simple, no?

[pigpenz]

seems it would have to RKCB dont we play negative doubles through at least 4♦?

[awm]

I voted for "to play." Takeout doesn't make sense since we can double with that hand. There are various ways to make slam tries in spades (5♦ cuebid, double followed by a spade call, 5♠ and 5NT). But a hand that just wants to play in notrump is somewhat stuck for a bid. Take something like: ♠Qx ♥Kxx ♦AQxx ♣Kxxx. Double and you are likely to end up in either four of a major (on a 7-card fit) or 5♣. Surely doubling followed by 4NT over partners 4♥ call would be keycard in hearts... so there's no real way to get to 4NT as a contract unless bidding it now is to play. Obviously a penalty double would be great here, but you're not playing those. You could pass and hope partner balances, but I don't think it's automatic to balance over 4♦ with a minimum opening just because of holding a singleton diamond (would you balance over 4♦ on a hand like: AJTxx Qxx x AJxx? sure it could be right to balance, but it could also be a disaster...)

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

for me 4NT would be artificial, asking partner to bid
5C, in this situation, most likely a strong one suiter
in hearts or clubs, partner will break the relay with
a hand better than minimum.
Is this best probably not, but since 4NT means always
the same for us, we will remember it.

Playing opposite a unknown guy, I would assume RKCB.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[mikeh]

A simple rule: over 4Major, takeout. Over 4minor, keycard. So keycard here.

[pclayton]

awm, on Oct 10 2005, 09:38 AM, said:

I voted for "to play." Takeout doesn't make sense since we can double with that hand. There are various ways to make slam tries in spades (5♦ cuebid, double followed by a spade call, 5♠ and 5NT). But a hand that just wants to play in notrump is somewhat stuck for a bid. Take something like: ♠Qx ♥Kxx ♦AQxx ♣Kxxx. Double and you are likely to end up in either four of a major (on a 7-card fit) or 5♣. Surely doubling followed by 4NT over partners 4♥ call would be keycard in hearts... so there's no real way to get to 4NT as a contract unless bidding it now is to play. Obviously a penalty double would be great here, but you're not playing those. You could pass and hope partner balances, but I don't think it's automatic to balance over 4♦ with a minimum opening just because of holding a singleton diamond (would you balance over 4♦ on a hand like: AJTxx Qxx x AJxx? sure it could be right to balance, but it could also be a disaster...)

I think I'd rather have the agreement that double (sort of a thrump - maybe forump is a better term? )shows Adam's hand and 4N can show an extreme two suiter. I don't think I'd be too worried about playing 4N vs defending 4♦, unless its matchpoints.

[FrancesHinden]

Saying that you can double with hearts and clubs is a little facile. After 1S - (4D) - double, opener will pass on virtually all unexceptional hands. If you play this double as strict take-out, you are completely stuck on a boring balanced 12-count 2434 in this auction.

I play 4NT in this auction is always a two-suiter, with a possible second option a slam try in partner's suit (depending on the relative ranks of the suits).

So here it must have rather better/longer clubs than hearts, as you are bypassing 4H. Would you really like to double 4D on

x
QJxxx
-
AK10xxxx
?

p.s. There is an argument that Blackwood will come up more often than specifically a H/C two-suiter with better clubs. But our life is made much easier with the agreement that a non-jump 4NT over an overcall is never Blackwood.

[joker_gib]

Walddk, on Oct 10 2005, 06:00 PM, said:

RKCB for spades. If I have hearts I bid them, if I have clubs I bid them, and if I have both I double. All situations covered, so 4NT must be SchwarzWald (German for Blackwood).

Roland

Agree.

Alain

[cherdano]

Walddk, on Oct 10 2005, 06:00 PM, said:

RKCB for spades. If I have hearts I bid them, if I have clubs I bid them, and if I have both I double. All situations covered, so 4NT must be SchwarzWald (German for Blackwood).

Sorry for nitpicking, but Schwarzwald means Black Forest (and Blackwood Schwarzholz according to a dictionary, but I have never heard that word before). Actually, a Black Forest Cake convention could come in pretty handy sometimes -- what I could need after I have butchered a 4♥X contract where, even worse, the penalty double was completely insane (not that this would ever happen to me, of course).

Btw, are you sure 5♣ shows clubs? Since 4♣ Gerber is unavailable, don't we need 5♣ for this? Or is this the king ask right away?

Arend

[Walddk]

cherdano, on Oct 12 2005, 11:05 AM, said:

Btw, are you sure 5♣ shows clubs? Since 4♣ Gerber is unavailable, don't we need 5♣ for this? Or is this the king ask right away?

Arend

5♣ is clubs, maybe too simple, sorry about that. How many ace asking bids do you need? I am completely lost if you can't bid clubs if you have them.

Why do you think that the G-convention is #11 on my list of the 10 conventions I dislike the most?

Roland

[helene_t]

Walddk, on Oct 12 2005, 11:31 AM, said:

Why do you think that the G-convention is #11 on my list of the 10 conventions I dislike the most?

Let me guess: because there are 10 variants of the F-convention?

[cherdano]

Walddk, on Oct 12 2005, 11:31 AM, said:

cherdano, on Oct 12 2005, 11:05 AM, said:

Btw, are you sure 5♣ shows clubs? Since 4♣ Gerber is unavailable, don't we need 5♣ for this? Or is this the king ask right away?

Arend

5♣ is clubs, maybe too simple, sorry about that. How many ace asking bids do you need? I am completely lost if you can't bid clubs if you have them.

Two. 4NT as Blackwood, and 5♣ as Gerber in case I think partner has forgotten that 4NT is Blackwood.

Arend

[Walddk]

helene_t, on Oct 12 2005, 11:35 AM, said:

Walddk, on Oct 12 2005, 11:31 AM, said:

Why do you think that the G-convention is #11 on my list of the 10 conventions I dislike the most?

Let me guess: because there are 10 variants of the F-convention?

Close. 7 variations of F and 3 of Capp. G is a clear #11. Well, in fact 1-11 are more or less equally bad in my opinion.

Roland