[42]

Perhaps simple, but...

You play old fashioned precison and the auction starts:
1♣ p 1♦ p
2♦ p 3♦

What does advancer promise?
What does opener's 3♥/♠ now show or ask for?

What is the correct bid after
1♣ p 1♦ p
2♦ p ??

with:
♠ AJxx
♥ Qxxx
♦ xxx
♣ xx ?

Caren


I inserted the missing 13th card, a small♠. Sorry; but I think it doesn't change much, or?

This post has been edited by 42: 2005-October-11, 08:51

[Chamaco]

The 1C-1D-2D sequence of Vanilla Precision is the worse of all: it eats a lot of space.

So it needs to be well defined otherwise responder has to evaluate his hand at too high a level when deciding on borderline hands whether to make a move towards game or whether signing off worried of a potential misfit.

I think most Precision pairs play that the 2D rebid by opener denies a side 4 card major (with a 4 card major they'll start with canapè).

Assuming this agreement, the 3M rebid should just show values looking for 3NT.

[pbleighton]

"I think most Precision pairs play that the 2D rebid by opener denies a side 4 card major (with a 4 card major they'll start with canapè)."

I don't think so - not those who follow Rigal or Berkowitz, anyway. A 1M rebid shows 5 always for Berkowitz, and Rigal will bid the 4 card major only if better than the 5 card minor.

Peter

[luke warm]

i've never read the rigal or berk books, but i'm surprised they bid a 5m before a 4M on that auction.. i'd have to see the logic behind it.. seens to help a whole lot if bidding the minor guarantees no major, eh?

[Chamaco]

pbleighton, on Oct 9 2005, 12:14 PM, said:

"I think most Precision pairs play that the 2D rebid by opener denies a side 4 card major (with a 4 card major they'll start with canapè)."

I don't think so - not those who follow Rigal or Berkowitz, anyway. A 1M rebid shows 5 always for Berkowitz, and Rigal will bid the 4 card major only if better than the 5 card minor.

Peter

Hi Peter,
of course there are many, improved, Precision versions.

My question was geared towards "old fashioned precison " as requested by Caren.

In "old fashioned precision", the sequences 1C-1D-2m are NONFORCING, and 1C-1D-1M are FORCING 1R, even with a 4 card suit, possibly in canapè.

As a result, many times opener prefers to show his major in canapè style, amd the 2m rebid, although not 100% of the times, will *tend* to deny a side 4card Major (otherwise responder will often be in trouble in deciding whether to try to improve the partscore in a major or passout 2m).

[Gerben42]

It shows a maximum 1♦ response with a fit. Now 3M shows a stopper in said suit and asks for a stopper in the other major.

Just a side question, why is this called "Vanilla" Precision? Is this some English expression I fail to understand or is there actually a system called Vanilla Precision?

[Chamaco]

Gerben42, on Oct 10 2005, 01:20 PM, said:

It shows a maximum 1♦ response with a fit. Now 3M shows a stopper in said suit and asks for a stopper in the other major.

Just a side question, why is this called "Vanilla" Precision? Is this some English expression I fail to understand or is there actually a system called Vanilla Precision?

"Vanilla" Precision is a sort of slang word for something like "Precision for dummies"

[pclayton]

pbleighton, on Oct 9 2005, 04:14 AM, said:

"I think most Precision pairs play that the 2D rebid by opener denies a side 4 card major (with a 4 card major they'll start with canapè)."

I don't think so - not those who follow Rigal or Berkowitz, anyway. A 1M rebid shows 5 always for Berkowitz, and Rigal will bid the 4 card major only if better than the 5 card minor.

Peter

I played B/C for a few years but we added aspects of Super Precision with the canapes.

If not playing canape sequences, you need some kind of staymanesque call by responder like 1♣ - 1♦ - 2♣ - 2♦ (2N replaces 2♦ to show diamonds) and 1♣ - 1♦ - 2♦ - 2♥ (2N replaces 2♥ to show hearts).

[Chamaco]

pclayton, on Oct 10 2005, 03:27 PM, said:

pbleighton, on Oct 9 2005, 04:14 AM, said:

"I think most Precision pairs play that the 2D rebid by opener denies a side 4 card major (with a 4 card major they'll start with canapè)."

I don't think so - not those who follow Rigal or Berkowitz, anyway. A 1M rebid shows 5 always for Berkowitz, and Rigal will bid the 4 card major only if better than the 5 card minor.

Peter

I played B/C for a few years but we added aspects of Super Precision with the canapes.

If not playing canape sequences, you need some kind of staymanesque call by responder like 1♣ - 1♦ - 2♣ - 2♦ (2N replaces 2♦ to show diamonds) and 1♣ - 1♦ - 2♦ - 2♥ (2N replaces 2♥ to show hearts).

The 1C-1D-2C sequence can use the same scheme one uses over the 2C opener.

The problem is more the 1C-1D-2D, where the lack of space makes it uncomfortable to:

- look for a side 4M
- offer a better partscore
- check for max/min of opener.

[pclayton]

Chamaco, on Oct 10 2005, 07:32 AM, said:

pclayton, on Oct 10 2005, 03:27 PM, said:

pbleighton, on Oct 9 2005, 04:14 AM, said:

"I think most Precision pairs play that the 2D rebid by opener denies a side 4 card major (with a 4 card major they'll start with canapè)."

I don't think so - not those who follow Rigal or Berkowitz, anyway. A 1M rebid shows 5 always for Berkowitz, and Rigal will bid the 4 card major only if better than the 5 card minor.

Peter

I played B/C for a few years but we added aspects of Super Precision with the canapes.

If not playing canape sequences, you need some kind of staymanesque call by responder like 1♣ - 1♦ - 2♣ - 2♦ (2N replaces 2♦ to show diamonds) and 1♣ - 1♦ - 2♦ - 2♥ (2N replaces 2♥ to show hearts).

The 1C-1D-2C sequence can use the same scheme one uses over the 2C opener.

The problem is more the 1C-1D-2D, where the lack of space makes it uncomfortable to:

- look for a side 4M
- offer a better partscore
- check for max/min of opener.

Not really. 2♥ subs in as Stayman (over 2♦) much the same as 2♦ (over 2♣) does. And it gets the NT frequently played from the correct side too.

Its beyond the scope here, but I think you can play transfers easily enough in these auctions. I never tried it.

[42]

I played already many hands old fashioned precision but this situation never arose before! Actually I was opp but wondered how I would have been bidding.
The ladies who played are not scientific bidders, so 2♦ did not deny a 4-card-holding, it showed just 5+♦s..

I bid 2♦ only "under force", with 6 cards or 2-suiter, when I have a problem with bidding NT.
Is it clear whether the bid of any M after 3♦ asks for or shows a stopper or is it a local agreement? In any case will advancer become declarer

My second question here was:
What is the correct bid after
1♣ p 1♦ p
2♦ p ??

with:
♠ AJx
♥ Qxxx
♦ xxx
♣ xx ?

I thought that 2♥ shows 5 cards, and if so, I dislike the suitquality for lying 1 card. But it would be logical to show 4♥s like we do after an SAYC 1♦ opening. What about a NT bid? Do I have to be scared about the ♣s or do I just hope that partner has some honours in ♣s because he has 16+ pts? After this auction it seems that opener cannot become declarer anymore...

The system is really "§$%&/ here...

[pclayton]

Blame it on the system Caren and just raise diamonds. If pard has 4 hearts you might hear about them on the way to 3N (except 3♥ might show a heart stop looking for 3N - blecccchhh).

Sometimes there actually is a reason why people spend hours per week on their system agreements

[mikestar]

I've played it both ways and canape is the way to go using natural responses (transfer responses are quite playable as well.)

1M round forcing helps with the troublesome big hands--the kind where 2/1 bidders open 2♣ with a side 4 card major and never find the 4-4 fit.

[Chamaco]

pclayton, on Oct 10 2005, 03:37 PM, said:

Not really. 2♥ subs in as Stayman (over 2♦) much the same as 2♦ (over 2♣) does. And it gets the NT frequently played from the correct side too.

Its beyond the scope here, but I think you can play transfers easily enough in these auctions. I never tried it.

Phil, the hands where I am worried are the hands where respnder is WEAK and would love to play in a 44M fit *at the 2 level*.

If u use 2H as stayman here, you can fit a 44 H fit only at the 3 level.

Instead, using canapè opener rebids when opener has a 4m+long minor allows to stop safely in a partscore at the 2 level, even when responder has a bad hand.

I agree that when responder has a forward hand, then one can use the 2H relay :-)

[pclayton]

Chamaco, on Oct 10 2005, 08:39 AM, said:

pclayton, on Oct 10 2005, 03:37 PM, said:

Not really. 2♥ subs in as Stayman (over 2♦) much the same as 2♦ (over 2♣) does. And it gets the NT frequently played from the correct side too.

Its beyond the scope here, but I think you can play transfers easily enough in these auctions. I never tried it.

Phil, the hands where I am worried are the hands where respnder is WEAK and would love to play in a 44M fit *at the 2 level*.

If u use 2H as stayman here, you can fit a 44 H fit only at the 3 level.

Instead, using canapè opener rebids when opener has a 4m+long minor allows to stop safely in a partscore at the 2 level, even when responder has a bad hand.

I agree that when responder has a forward hand, then one can use the 2H relay :-)

I think with a weak 4-4, you are never finding it over 2♦ whether 2♥ shows a heart suit or is Stayman.

To me, the biggest fear is getting the hearts in low enough when responder has a 5 count and 5 hearts. When you sub 2♥ (as stayman) with 2N, you are pushing it to the 3 level.

When I was playing Precision, the primary goal was always to find the most likely strain for game, not necessarily the best part score.

Again, I agree, canapes work best and you avoid issues like this.

[luke warm]

in the weiss club (just a fyi) 1c : 2d : 2c is artificial and shows 21+ hcp and asks for exact number of controls... if 2c over a positive, 1h/d/nt, then it asks for exact number of queens

the 2d bid is artificial also: 1c : 1d : 2d shows a 3 suiter

[adhoc3]

42, on Oct 9 2005, 05:42 AM, said:

Perhaps simple, but...

What is the correct bid after
1♣ p 1♦ p
2♦ p ??

with:
♠ AJx
♥ Qxxx
♦ xxx
♣ xx  ?

Caren

I love canape after 1♣-1♦. Thus, 2♦ certainly showed 6+ cards of ♦ and unbalanced hand -- otherwise the opener would rebid 1NT.

1♣-1♦
2♦-

I think it's not necessary worry to much about ♣. 2NT/3NT just indicate break strength in majors. The opener wont expect 1♦ pd have all stoppers. if change ♥Q to K, I'll bid 5♦ to test my lucky.

Having 3♦ and soft Q, I'll bid 3NT and trust my PD's final decision.

Btw, where's the 13th card?

[42]

Quote

Btw, where's the 13th card?

oooops... in ♠s. Sorry! The last days have not been mine...

♠ AJxx
♥ Qxxx
♦ xxx
♣ xx