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Trap pass or... ?

#1 User is offline   Chamaco 

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Posted 2005-September-29, 01:13

Hi all !!

Vuln vs NV,
Matchpoints Pairs,

you hold
QJ9xx-AQ-AKQJ-Jx

RHO (sorry I had mistakenly written "LHO") deals and opens... 1♠ :D

1. do you trap pass or bid your hand as it were a (semibalanced) 18-20 (e.g. dbl +NT) ? Or anything else...

2. Would your choice depend on the vulnerability and on the form of scoring ?

Thanks !! :D
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#2 User is offline   oldgun 

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Posted 2005-September-29, 01:40

tough hand,

i choice dbl,rebid NT,maybe have 3nt.
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#3 User is offline   mr1303 

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Posted 2005-September-29, 02:17

The trouble is, is that if you decide to make a trap pass, you'll have thought about it for so long partner will be virtually barred from reopening with his 6 count and stiff spade.

So I'll double and rebid NT. Same at any form of the game. (except maybe plus or fishfood)
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#4 User is offline   Chamaco 

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Posted 2005-September-29, 02:19

mr1303, on Sep 29 2005, 08:17 AM, said:

The trouble is, is that if you decide to make a trap pass, you'll have thought about it for so long partner will be virtually barred from reopening with his 6 count and stiff spade.

So I'll double and rebid NT. Same at any form of the game. (except maybe plus or fishfood)

Reasonable from the practical standpoint.

What would you bid with a screen (so that pard cannot see your hesitations)?
E.g.: what would be your technical choice without ethical worries ?
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#5 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2005-September-29, 02:32

Agree with mr1303. Just an anecdote to show that even with that strategy, there may be an ethical problem:

Very similar situation happened to my partner last year. She decided to start with a double and then bid diamonds. Unfortunately, my intuition said that she had a monster hand. Some kind of UI must have passed anyway. I bid 3NT with my 6 HCPs which was probably not ethically correct, in hinsight. (The fact that opps bid the other major (in which I hold a 5-card myself) after she doubled, was an additional clue that she had an unsual hand so maybe it was OK).

I would bid 3NT. At favorable I would probably (witout ethocal worries) pass, especially at IMPs. No idea if this is correct, I just love Neandertal bidding. Nice problem for a simulation.
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#6 User is offline   Gerben42 

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Posted 2005-September-29, 03:37

I won't pass, probably everyone else will and we have 3NT cold!
Double and bid NT for me.
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#7 User is offline   Chamaco 

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Posted 2005-September-29, 04:17

Gerben42, on Sep 29 2005, 09:37 AM, said:

I won't pass, probably everyone else will and we have 3NT cold!
Double and bid NT for me.


Alright, I agree with you Gerben.

But now assume you are playing Raptor 1NT overcalls.
That means that double +1NT shows 15/16-18, therefore the 19-20/21 will double and then bid 2NT

Assume you have been forced to agree the Raptor 1NT scheme.
Would you dare to double and rebid 2NT with this hand ?
("I am happy of not playing Raptor 1NT" is not a valid response! LOL :lol: )
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#8 User is offline   Chamaco 

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Posted 2005-September-29, 04:36

BTW:

if RHO deals and opens 1S, what would you bid holding

QJ9xx-J-AKQJ-AKQ
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#9 User is offline   Al_U_Card 

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Posted 2005-September-29, 07:40

Chamaco, on Sep 29 2005, 05:36 AM, said:

BTW:

if RHO deals and opens 1S, what would you bid holding

QJ9xx-J-AKQJ-AKQ

How about when the 1S bid comes from your left with 2 passes to you? That one is the 3NT call in balancing seat. (RHO is bust so pard can provide the other tricks you need.)

In the first instance, I want to bid 3NT right off, but will be happy with DBL and then the appropriate number of NT to invite game when it is there. :lol:
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Posted 2005-September-29, 07:58

I pass (in tempo). Once RHO opens spades, we have no tricks or safety. Yes, I will end up passing throughout in most auctions, but I will probably end up with a plus score which is as good as I'm going to hope for. Someone earlier suggested partner being barred with a 6 count and a stiff spade if you think for too long. I'm wondering how you plan on making 3N opposite that without any tricks. I would guess bidding would net a minus score. When they open your suit it's often best to go quietly.

In a raptor scheme I don't see how Xing then bidding 1N shows a 1N overcall. The fact is, you cannot EVER X and bid 1N when they open 1S (not technically true 1S X XX p p 1N and 1S X p p XX 1N are possible!). Not to get off topic but if that is how you show a strong NT in raptor you will never be able to show it :lol:
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#11 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2005-September-29, 08:05

I think I pass 2nd and 4th.
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#12 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2005-September-29, 08:52

I would pass quickly, before I had even counted all my HCP as I often do, then maybe I would regret when I realice I am too strong... or maybe not.
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#13 User is offline   Chamaco 

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Posted 2005-September-29, 09:05

Jlall, on Sep 29 2005, 01:58 PM, said:

In a raptor scheme I don't see how Xing then bidding 1N shows a 1N overcall.

Justin, I did not mean to dbl +1NT using Raptor, but the only alternative (I think :P ), I was thinking of was dbl + 2NT
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#14 User is offline   pclayton 

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Posted 2005-September-29, 09:07

In the days of Zar openers and such, 3N is still in the ballpark.

I'll make a power double if available. If not, I'll reluctantly pass.
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#15 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2005-September-29, 09:27

Pass. I would have no trouble with tempo, since for me, this hand offers no alternative.

I know that you can construct hands on which passing missed game. But you have to work at it.

It is far more likely that the opps can establish/run ♣ (and what are you pitching?) and/or endplay you.

Expecting to bid and make game is chasing moonbeams. I'd much rather take a small plus
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#16 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2005-September-29, 09:33

Easy Power Double :P Otherwise also Dbl followed by a NT bid somewhere to show my extra's.
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#17 User is offline   Al_U_Card 

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Posted 2005-September-29, 10:06

Guess we can separate the inexperienced dreamers from the experienced pragmatists on this one. Plusses are good and dreams are for the night......
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#18 User is offline   Chamaco 

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Posted 2005-September-29, 10:29

Alright, I guess it's time to give the full hands.

After RHO opened 1S I elected to pass quickly.

Opener had
AKxxx-KJTxx-x-AK

Dummy:
x-98xx-xxxx-xxxx


Those who interfered allowed opps to find 4H doubled making.
The passers let opps play 1S making.

The MP result was just above average (about 65% of the field passed out 1S)
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#19 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2005-September-29, 10:33

I'll beat ben to it on this hand...

A MisIry opening stops this kind of accident (playing 1S) from happening :rolleyes:
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#20 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2005-September-29, 15:48

4.5 losers hand is not enough for misry I think
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