[barmar]

whereagles, on Sep 22 2005, 09:23 AM, said:

I didn't mean "unsuitable" as "risky". I meant that if the overcall is supposed to be two-suited, then making it on a 44 is making it on an unsuitable hand. If you see what I mean...

Anyway, as to scrambing into the best fit leading to same result as letting opps play in 1NT, I don't think that's true, for a number of reasons.

I like to make DONT two-suiter bids on weak 4-4 hands in the balancing seat. Partner has values over there, but since he didn't bid he presumably has a balanced hand, so we're likely to find a fit in one of my 4-card suits. But if we defend, partner will constantly be end-played into giving declarer tricks.

The main thing that DONT has going for it, besides being able to stop on the 2 level so you avoid big numbers, is it's just so damn simple. I've always been surprised that Capp is so much more popular than DONT in the online pick-up community. Is there any simpler convention to learn? At first (10 years ago) I thought it was just that Capp had been around longer than DONT, but by now that advantage should have worn out. I'm even more amazed when I pick up partners at NABCs and have to *teach* them DONT; it takes two seconds, and they always say "OK, that's easy enough."

[SoTired]

Much of this discussion concerns which method is "best." Personal biases seem quite prevalent. Other than a pickup partner where using DONT or Capp is the choice least likely to cause a misunderstanding, I think there are two main considerations when choosing a 1N defense:

1) Against strong NT that allows the defense to compete/interfere. Since it is unlikely the defense has a game, defined strength limits for the different bids is unnecessary. A safe partscore or safe interference to confound the offense is most important.

2) Against weak or mini NT when the hand may belong to the defense. Since game may be possible, strength limits need to be defined and methods to show strong hand types. Otherwise the weak and mini NTers will steal you blind.

Any one method that is adequate against strong NT cannot possibly be adequate against weak NT and especially against mini NT.

[awm]

Jlall, on Sep 22 2005, 12:24 PM, said:

It seems like in your method vs woolsey you gain:

Natural 2D.
Ability to play 2m opposite th 5M-4+m hand type

You lose:

Ability to diffentiate between 5-4 Mm and 4-5 Mm hands.

There are some other minor things on both sides, but these seem to be the main things right?

Advancer's bids are not actually structured the way you suggest. After:

1NT-X-Pass

The most frequent bid is 2♣. This asks for a five card suit, so doubler will normally bid 2♥ (for example) holding five hearts, even if also holding four or more clubs. In other words, the sequences are not a DONT-like scramble for an "acceptable" fit, but rather a "majors-first" Woolsey-like structure where the longer suit can normally be distinguished, but where you often have to go to the three-level to prefer a four-card minor over a five-card major.

If opening side remains silent after the initial 1NT bid, this method will essentially always reach the same (or a superior) contract to Woolsey

Comparing this method vs. Woolsey, the gains are:

Natural 2♦.

Natural 2♥/2♠ instead of "multi" (yes I know some will say this is a loss but I find that it is better for partner to know my suit in auctions that often continue with 2NT lebensohl and a minor suit signoff)

Ability to play 2♥ in advancer's long suit when the person in direct seat has 5♠+4m

The losses are:

Some ambiguity after the double, but really only when opponents continue bidding.

Double takes up less space than 2M (then again, we probably bid 2M direct more often than Woolsey does).

[cherdano]

Adam, just as I thought all threads on 1NT defenses are boring since I've seen 'em all (or rather, I have seen most and the others are just minor variations), you post a really nice structure that I like immediately. Thanks!
Your reasoning about the natural 2♦ bid makes a lot of sense to me.

Arend

[Chamaco]

awm, on Sep 22 2005, 08:14 PM, said:

Jlall, on Sep 22 2005, 12:24 PM, said:

It seems like in your method vs woolsey you gain:

Natural 2D.
Ability to play 2m opposite the 5M-4+m hand type

You lose:

Ability to diffentiate between 5-4 Mm and 4-5 Mm hands.

There are some other minor things on both sides, but these seem to be the main things right?

Advancer's bids are not actually structured the way you suggest. After:

1NT-X-Pass

The most frequent bid is 2♣. This asks for a five card suit, so doubler will normally bid 2♥ (for example) holding five hearts, even if also holding four or more clubs.

Adam, what does advancer bid when he is short in clubs ?
(this is related to the rebid scheme for overcaller: shall he pass a 2C advance if holding 5+ clubs?)

E.g.

xxxx-Kxxxx-QJx-x

a. Here, if advancer is short in clubs should he bid 2C asking for a 5 card suit ?
And if overcaller has 5+clubs, should he pass the 2C advance ?


b.(related to a): should 2D be pass/correct with C shortness ?

[Elianna]

Chamaco, on Sep 23 2005, 12:59 AM, said:

Adam, what does advancer bid when he is short in clubs ?
(this is related to the rebid scheme for overcaller: shall he pass a 2C advance if holding 5+ clubs?)

E.g.

xxxx-Kxxxx-QJx-x

a. Here, if advancer is short in clubs should he bid 2C asking for a 5 card suit ?
And if overcaller has 5+clubs, should he pass the 2C advance ?


b.(related to a): should 2D be pass/correct with C shortness ?

Not Adam, but I play Meyerson.

If advancer just wishes to inquire as to the major, he needs to bid 2!d (as in Woolsey) which asks for the major. And then one can't tell if overcaller has a four or five card major suit. (A 2NT rebid by advancer asks for more info, and it's too late at night for me to remember the structure, but if I had to make a stab in the dark, we may play our old Woolsey structure, but I'm not sure, so I won't post it here. When Adam's less busy, I'm sure that he'll clarify this. )

And for your other question: yes, overcaller with 5+ clubs MAY pass the 2C advance, but he isn't required to.

[awm]

Chamaco, on Sep 23 2005, 02:59 AM, said:

Adam, what does advancer bid when he is short in clubs ?
(this is related to the rebid scheme for overcaller: shall he pass  a 2C advance if holding 5+ clubs?)

E.g.

xxxx-Kxxxx-QJx-x

a. Here, if advancer is short in clubs should he bid 2C asking for a 5 card suit ?
And if overcaller has 5+clubs, should he pass the 2C advance ?


b.(related to a): should 2D be pass/correct with C shortness ?

a.

Like most hands short in clubs, this example hand is an easy 2♦ advance, asking for partner's major. Admittedly I don't know whether partner's major is four or five, but it's pretty clear I'd rather play there than in clubs.

There do exist some "difficult" patterns where advancer is short in clubs and in one of the majors. Unfortunately these hands are often misfits and there isn't always much to be done. With two clubs I tend to bid 2♣ to start on these; otherwise I will often try a five-card major at the two-level (suggesting to play my own suit). Another option with some values (like say 10+ hcp) is to pass and hope to set 1NT.

b.

At one time I tried playing 2♦ pass/correct. The advantages of the current method include having 2♥ natural (suggesting a contract rather than pass/correct) and better game try sequences after the (forcing) 2♦ call. The vast majority of hands with short clubs can reasonably bid 2♦ as a major suit ask. Note that even if you have a huge diamond fit and end up playing in an eight-card major instead, this will often be the higher scoring spot. Also, when you have a huge diamond fit plus a major suit fit, your opponents usually don't shut up.

c. [In response to Elianna's post]

After 1NT-X-Pass-2♦; Pass-2M-Pass...

Advancer has the following continuations available...

2♠ = natural, suggests good spades and a partial fit for hearts
2NT = asking, generally an invite in the major, advancer bids 3♣/♦ natural with a min, or else 3♥/♠ to show a max with clubs/diamonds respectively. Tend to upgrade hands with a five card major holding fairly aggressively here (since usually you will end up playing in the major)
3♣ = pass/correct to the minor, rare perhaps but it does happen

After 1NT-X-Pass-2♣; Pass-2♦-Pass...

2♥ is pass/correct for the major
2♠ is natural
2NT = asking, doubler bids 3♣/♦ to show a minimum with hearts/spades respectively, or 3♥/♠ natural with a max
3♣ is natural and not very strong

After 1NT-X-Pass-2♣; Pass-2M-Pass, same followups as if advancer had bid 2♦

[TheoKole]

ArcLight said

" I'm sure you've noticed in this day and age, a 2 ♣ overcall provides zero preemption to practiced opponents (they ignore it) and a 2 ♦ overcall doesn't get you much more.


How as the partner of the 1NT bidder how do you deal with the opponents bid of:


2♣ ? Double for Stayman? What about penalizing Clubs?

2♦? Doesn't that kill of Jacoby transfers? What do you do over 2 Diamonds?"


My regular partner and I play Lebenshoel (correct spelling?) over 1 or 2 suit overcallers.

Double is for penalty

2 ♥ and 2 ♠ are for passing and 3 ♣ and 3 ♦ directly are forcing,
2NT forces 3 ♣ which can be passed or corrected to 3 ♦ for passing,

the rest is a bit complicated:

2NT -> 3 ♣ -> 3 ♥ or 3 ♠ is inviting to game

(the rest is with the idea Slow Shows stoppers)
1NT -> (2X) -> 3X is stayman without a stopper for NT
1NT -> (2X) -> 2NT -> 3♣ -> 3X is stayman with a stopper for NT
1NT -> (2X) -> 3NT is points for game without a stopper
1NT -> (2X) -> 2NT -> 3 ♣ -> 3NT is points for game with a stopper

Over 1NT -> 2 ♣-> (double) it is very complicated

Redouble shows a willingness to play there with no 4 card major and good 5+ ♣with good spot cards

Without a club stopper NT bidder passes for the time being
2 ♦ shows no 4 card major and clubs stopped but not good enough for redouble
2 ♥ and 2 ♠ shows 4 card majors with at least 1 club stopper
Resonder bids as he normally would after these responses

If NT bidder passes without a club stopper, responder can redouble to say basically (answer my stayman question) and bidding goes naturally from there

If resonder bids 3 clubs he shows half a stopper and if he bids NT a full stopper

I know this system is very complicated but we found that after various mishaps, that the opponents were getting away with murder on their overcalls because we didn't have a system to combat them.

After a few 2 ♣ redoubled + 3 contracts ( I LOVE that part of the convention), most of the opps remembered the last time they tried a double for a lead and they became pussycats again )

The system needs a lot of practice and total agreement to avoid accidents but in the long run, it is worth it.

Theo

[TheoKole]

By the way, if the overcaller is less than 3♦, then Texas transfers are still in affect as resonder will be making a jump bid.

*************
For 3 diamond overcallers and up, most bids are natural- 3 ♥ or 3 ♠ with a 5 card suit.

4X of overcallers suit for takeout (promises 4 cards in unbid majors)
4 ♥ and 4 ♠ to play

If opponents double a Jacoby transer then NT bidder accepts the transfer immediately with 3+ cards in the suit and a stopper in their suit or super accepts with 4+ cards in your suit and at least 1 stopper in theirs.

If the NT bidder passes then it means that he has less than 3 cards in responders suit or is without a stopper in their suit. Responder redoubles to tell NT bidder to accept the transfer and NT bidder responds as follows:

2NT - stoppers in their suit maximum (2 cards in your suit) (if responder is weak he responds 3 of their suit for transfer to probably pass at the 3 level)

2X - minimum or maximum with 2 or 3 card support or without a stopper in their suit
3X - super accepting maximum with 4 card support without a stopper in their suit

Again this system is complicated but it just about covers all the bases

Cheers
Theo