[Walddk]

I passed because I don't think it's worth a game try. A hand that could do nothing more than raising to 2♥ (no Drury) can't cover three of my six losers. 3♥ is in jeopardy.

Roland

[hrothgar]

mikeh, on Sep 21 2005, 11:49 PM, said:

2. Partner may be sitting there with KJ109 of ♠ or better and be about to clobber them: you have enough defence to be very happy to defend if he doubles.
He should NOT bid 1♠ with the correct values for 2♥. He should NOT be thinking about a lead-director against silent opps after your 1♥ bid. Presumably his lead director is intended to be useful against a minor suit contract. 2♥ might not be a lead director, but it is far, far more likely to make such a lead directing bid irrelevant: the opps have passed and they are going to balance, at imps, at the 3-level? Get a grip on reality, folks . It may happen, but should you and your partner plan your constructive auctions around that ?

The cult of the constructive auction rears its silly little head once more...

I don't plan my bidding based on the assumption that the opponents will go quietly. I most certainly don't do so when I'm contemplating a 2♥ contract sitting on a stiff Spade.

As to your last sentence:

If you check my original posting I argued in favor of a 3♣ based on the following logic:

1. I'm short in Spades. Therefore, there is a real risk that the opponents can safely balance in 2♠

2. A 3♣ long suit game try will work well since regardless of what hand type partner holds. If he is strong in Clubs, the opponents have a good Spade sac. If he is weak in clubs, we'll rest in 3♠...

I think I did a pretty good job anticipating the key points of the hand.

Oh yeah. Partner is sitting on pretty good spades (KJ62).
2♠ has a decent chance of making...

[Walddk]

Jlall, on Sep 21 2005, 11:22 PM, said:

Walddk, on Sep 21 2005, 04:15 PM, said:

A hand that could do nothing more than raising to 2♥ (no Drury) can't cover three of my six losers.

Warning: Carefully constructed hands approaching.

Perhaps you worded it poorly and meant "rates not to be able to cover three of my 6 losers." There are quite a few hand types that can make game such as:

xxx
Qxxx
KJTx
xx

xxxx
9xxx
KTx
Kx

xxx
Qxx
xx
KQxxx

etc etc, I could go on but it's pointless. You'll note the HCP are 6, 6, and 7. There are no stiffs. Game is cold on 2 hands and very good on the other one. Pass may well be the best hand, but I don't think its fair to say a 2H bid cannot produce a game opposite this hand.

You gave partner ZERO hcp in spades in all examples, and yet we didn't hear anything from the opponents. They have 19-20 hcp and AKQJ of spades. You think they would be passing when in two of your examples they have 9 spades between them?

Dream on Justin

Roland

[inquiry]

By popular demand earlier in these threads I will not include votes from the table in the scores. Oh well, was a cute idea (would not help much anyway on this hand, as there were bids of Pass, 3C, 3D, and 4H at the actual table). Our panelist were divided into two groups. Those who had heard enough with 2♥ and choose the careful pass. And those who issued a game try, some choosing clubs, come choosing diamonds to make the try. Let’s hear from the winning majority (actually we have a tie here, but I get to assign the scores, soo….)

FRED Pass - slightly conservative, but the opps' silence suggests that partner has length and strength in spades so there is a good chance that our hands don't fit well. If we were vul I might try 3C. Hard to answer this question properly without knowing how strong partner has to be to use Drury and if 2H is "semi-contructive" in this position."

Fluffy "Pass, I don't find any hand that partner can have without 4♥, that will make game on 80% or better, would pass at any vulnerability."

NG: "Pass. The deciding factor is the vulnerability in this problem, to try for game or not. I think 4H has only 30-40% chance, we are NOT VULNERABLE, so I pass. At
Vul, I would try for game. If there is no agreement, short suit game try is
out of picture, so long suit trial bid is on. 3C or 3D? 3D is better,
because if partner has diamond honours (KJ or A), game has a reasonable
chance. If you make a game try and have to decide between two suits, better
to bid your worse suit, because you need more help in that one. "

Roland "PASS. Non vulnerable, and partner could not introduce Drury. It's highly unlikely that he can cover three of our six losers. The only reason to bid on (3D help suit trial bid is my choice unless I can bid a Romex 2NT to show short spades) would be the risk of LHO balancing in spades."

Luis "Pass: Not vulnerable I don't think I want to invite and I don't think the
opponents are going to balance after all those passes. If you have to ask
me I'm more worried about the opponents competing to 2 spades or 3 spades
than missing a heart game."

Sergey "3H - preemptive re-raise (safe enough: strong trumps, favorable vulnerability). " A thoughtful bid.

Then there was the members who made a game try… Beto choosing the try in diamonds, and the others, using ♣’s.

Beto "3♦. With a singleton, this good trump suit and 14 you should invite at least. If we could show the spade shortness, this would be the best way to do it here. Using BB advanced, i bid the suit that i want some high card support in it. I dont bid 3♣ because partner may think that his singleton club is a bad holding."

Justin "3C. A lot of minimum hands make game, specifically those with club and diamond honors and little wastage in spades. Sure we could be going down at the 3 level, but it's worth the risk to try and find a game. If I pass they may even balance and push me to 3H anyways."


Flytoox "I vote for 3C. Do we play long suit game try or short suit game try? Without specification I will bid naturally. "

Reisig "Game looks a bit short..with no Drury bid ..BUT ..I try anyway:)) 3C "

Finally, there was henri, who found no reason not to push the pedal to the metal.

Ritong " 4♥ i bid game on every non minimum hand with elegant shape. Sometimes it makes, sometimes not, it is the "see-saw" principle an important point is, since I hold 100 honors, i do not expect a double.

Like hand one, there was five signoffs, and five game or game bids…. Argh….At least this time, I agree with pass, so I there is less pain than the last hand.

PASS = 100
3♥ = 90
3♣ = 80
3♦ = 70
4♥ = 40

[mike777]

Prefer to keep most of system even by passed hand which means constructive raises still on even by passed hand, no Drury.

KJ62
542
K83
652

would not be a constructive raise.

P=1H
1S=2C
2H=P

[inquiry]

mike777, on Sep 22 2005, 10:25 AM, said:

Prefer to keep most of system even by passed hand which means constructive raises still on even by passed hand, no Drury.

KJ62
542
K83
652

would not be a constructive raise.

P=1H
1S=2C
2H=P

Try to keep in mind we are using Bridge Base Advanced for these polls. So what we prefer does not come into the picture. I am sure Ritong was bidding his normal method rather than BBO Advanced for his leap to 4♥ here.

[mike777]

I understand.

Could someone please explain what our passed hand raises look like with a few examples? Can this hand bid 1s then 2h in BBO advanced or is 2h forced?

[whereagles]

Well.. as for what is or is not a constructive raise, I would say the following

Unpassed hand: normal stuff.
3-6: weak raise, bid via 1NT + 2M
7-10: constructive raise, bid 1M-2M.
11-12: invitational raise, bid via 1NT + 3M.

Passed hand: values lower a bit because there is Drury available, and because you should NOT bid above the 2 level to invite (pard can be weaker than 12 hcp).
3-4: too weak. You can risk 2M if you feel lucky. Don't bid 1NT because it's no longer forcing.
5-8: constructive, bid 1M-2M.
9-11: invitational, bid Drury.

[JLOGIC]

Jlall, on 2005-September-20, 19:26, said:

Mike, I understand your position let me just tell you my thoughts (about drury).

1) If you like bergen, you can still play it. Drury could just be used to show a 3 card limit. This is not my preference, but the 2 are not exclusive. You could also play 2 way drury but I know you'll hate that idea

2) Getting to the 3 level fast is not that important when both opponents have passed. You don't really need to preempt them. Yes I know its *possible* they have a game, but you might consider the likelihood that 2 passed hands have a game AND will bid it AND wont bid it if you get to the 3 level quickly. Even when they can effectively compete and push you to 3, you haven't lost anything, and a lot of times they cant compete even when it's right.

3) You can of course use game tries even playing drury. kfguass just evaluates this hand as not a game try. I don't think the range is much different between raises by a PH hand and an UPH in normal drury, a drury still shows a limit raise (a hand evaluated as too good to show a normal raise). If you want to include good constructive hands, thats a matter of agreement but not standard as far as I know.

4) I agree, you must consider the gains and the losses. The gains are basically the ability to stay at the 2 level opposite a limit raise in an opener that is potentially light, and the ability to thoroughly investigate slam and game. With drury you get to MAKE game tries that you wouldnt in bergen (where it would go 1H p 3D or 1H p 1N p 2x p 3H). This investigation is helpful. You lose a natural 2C bid, but how likely is it to come up? You need about 9-10 with a 6 card suit (some 10s you would open) or 10 with a 5 card suit. I don't rate the loss that high.

The correct response to mike777 was "LOL." What is this long post?!

Anyways strongly agree with game trying still, keep fightin the good fight jlall!