[ArcLight]

Are Minor Suit Stayman and 4 way transfers really that useful?

I can see that maybe a 4 way transfer might be useful, but Minor Suit stayman?

[FrancesHinden]

I played minor suit Stayman for 10 years in my most regular partnership, and it didn't come up once.

We've got rid of it, and now have more accurate ways of showing assorted 3-suited hands as responder. These do come up.

[Chamaco]

ArcLight, on Sep 20 2005, 02:11 PM, said:

Are Minor Suit Stayman and 4 way transfers really that useful?

I can see that maybe a 4 way transfer might be useful, but Minor Suit stayman?

MSS is useful for either slam try in minors or minor-based GF hands very unbalanced that find 3NT unappealing.

How much MSS is useful depends from other agreements in the system.

E.g.:
- if one can start a full relay scheme using 2C or 2D stayman, then MSS is less useful (when you do have a minors 2-suiter you just relay to ask shaoe rather than showing your own shape)

- holding a minor 2suiter one could use xfer to clubs then bid diamonds with invitational values NF and use MSS for GF hands or btter

- finally, responding to 2NT openers, using 3S as MSS can be a good path to look for slam in minor(s), unless using it for smolen hands.

I am sure there are many other factors here, other posters will elaborate, I think (hope ).

[pclayton]

I might have mentioned my partnership is throwing out a lot of stuff. Right now we are playing 12-14 NT's with Keri and the other associated dubious crap.

We are switching over to 15-17 NT's (especially at MP's). I will add in 4 suit transfers. 3 of a major will probably be shortness with both minors.

I never expect to have a misunderstanding using these methods.

[Gerben42]

Instead of 4-suit transfer and MSS I can recommend the following treatment that is simple and probably won't be forgotten.

1NT - 2♠ = invitational balanced (i.e. the old 1NT - 2NT) or a signoff in 3 of a minor.
Opener bids 2NT with minimum, 3♣ with maximum. Responder then signs off. Can put some use to 3M-rebids if you like (we play them as 5431 hands)

Bonus: If you like a convention that is similar to my name, you can ask min/max before using it. Although I might risk banishment mentioning this, I just thought I'd point it out

1NT - 2NT = both minors, weak or strong (partner gives preference, strong hand continues)
1NT - 3minor = invitational for that minor (partner bids 3NT with a top honor and a suitable hand)
1NT - 3major = slam-invitational for the corresponding minor

[Walddk]

Gerben42, on Sep 20 2005, 04:49 PM, said:

Bonus: If you like a convention that is similar to my name, you can ask min/max before using it. Although I might risk banishment mentioning this, I just thought I'd point it out

Never heard of the Dirksen convention. Please explain.

Roland

[inquiry]

Use a cake-and-eat it too auction....

1NT-2!S check minimum/maximum or signoff in ♣ or forcing with ♣.. The superaccept is 3♣, the minimum hand is 2NT... This allows you to bid 2♠ and play 2NT or 3NT with invite hand, and you hear about partners club fit... with max. 3M or 3♦ by responder after this is short suit.

1NT-2NT = ♦ or weak hand with both minors. Opener rebids 3♣ with bad hand for ♦ and 3♦ with good hand for ♦'s. 3M after this by responder is short suit with ♦.

This is part of ETM victory over 1NT

[pclayton]

Jlall, on Sep 20 2005, 06:46 AM, said:

I love 4 way transfers. The best auctions for them are transferring then bidding 3M (shortness) i think.

Or play "Goldman"

ex:

1N - 2♠ - 3♣ - 3♦ ("other minor") = slam try with unknown shortness.

1N - 2N - 3♦ - 3 of major = 4 of other major and game forcing values.

Both this and JL's method are useful, however, the long minor / 4cM hand can be difficult especially is you start with stayman and pard bids your major.

[pclayton]

inquiry, on Sep 20 2005, 07:07 AM, said:

Use a cake-and-eat it too auction....

1NT-2!S check minimum/maximum or signoff in ♣ or forcing with ♣.. The superaccept is 3♣, the minimum hand is 2NT... This allows you to bid 2♠ and play 2NT or 3NT with invite hand, and you hear about partners club fit... with max. 3M or 3♦ by responder after this is short suit.

1NT-2NT = ♦ or weak hand with both minors. Opener rebids 3♣ with bad hand for ♦ and 3♦ with good hand for ♦'s. 3M after this by responder is short suit with ♦.

This is part of ETM victory over 1NT

So 2♠ is a range ask or clubs? Sounds interesting, but you can't play superaccepts, since 3♣ just shows a max NT.

[helene_t]

4-way transfer is useful but you can't invite with a ballanced hand without 4-card major or you have to go through Stayman, which is impractical.
Solution 1: Use 3♣ for diamonds, either weak or strong. Invitational hands with diamonds can be a direct 3♦ or via 2♠ or via Stayman.
Solution 2: Don't invite with ballanced hands without 4-card major. It's go/no-go.

If you don't like either of the two solutions I think you're better off without 4-suit transfer.

MSS (MSA?) is a fine tool except that it never comes up. It's not on my top 500 wish list.

[Elianna]

helene_t, on Sep 20 2005, 09:01 AM, said:

4-way transfer is useful but you can't invite with a ballanced hand without 4-card major or you have to go through Stayman, which is impractical.

Why is going through Stayman to invite on a hand without a fourcard major impractical?

Adam and I play that (though we don't play 4-way transfers, we play something else) and we have yet to have something bad happen from that.

We HAVE however played 2NT with a 5-4 spade fit TWICE (1NTer had 5 spades, responder had 4333, and chose to treat hand as balanced even after uncovering the 4-4 spade fit) for good results.

[sceptic]

Quote

4-way transfer is useful but you can't invite with a ballanced hand without 4-card major or you have to go through Stayman, which is impractical.

no it is not, it is quite useful and one thing that seems to happen with bidding stayman is opps shut up, I like 4way transfers and I use stayman usually alert it as may not have a 4 card major

[Rebound]

helene_t, on Sep 20 2005, 12:01 PM, said:

4-way transfer is useful but you can't invite with a ballanced hand without 4-card major or you have to go through Stayman, which is impractical.

I must admit that there is something about this statement I don't understand. The treatment in use with my current partner allows for both 4-way transfers and natural invite to 2NT. We treat 2♠ as showing clubs and 3♣ as showing diamonds with 2NT remaining natural. Very basic, and I am sure it has its flaws but it works well for us.

[Al_U_Card]

Rebound, on Sep 20 2005, 02:32 PM, said:

helene_t, on Sep 20 2005, 12:01 PM, said:

4-way transfer is useful but you can't invite with a ballanced hand without 4-card major or you have to go through Stayman, which is impractical.

I must admit that there is something about this statement I don't understand. The treatment in use with my current partner allows for both 4-way transfers and natural invite to 2NT. We treat 2♠ as showing clubs and 3♣ as showing diamonds with 2NT remaining natural. Very basic, and I am sure it has its flaws but it works well for us.

Having the minor suit transfers provide room for a super accept is quite valuable. The use of phony stayman then 2NT for the invite is a bit of a wrench, but not too painful most of the time.

[hrothgar]

Comment 1: I prefer 4 way transfers to MSS because 4 way xfers don't allow and invitational 2NT bid. ANYTHING that stops partner from making an invitational 2NT has to be a good thing.

Comment 2: Strangely enough my favorite methods don't use either MSS or 4 way transfers... I strongly recommend looking at Keri and the Scanian stuff.

Some day I'll figure out how to integrate the Scanian 2♠ and 2NT bids into the Keri structure

[Al_U_Card]

hrothgar, on Sep 20 2005, 02:55 PM, said:

... I strongly recommend looking at Keri and the Scanian stuff.

Some day I'll figure out how to integrate the Scanian 2♠ and 2NT bids into the Keri structure

Got any links? tnx

[hrothgar]

Al_U_Card, on Sep 20 2005, 11:10 PM, said:

hrothgar, on Sep 20 2005, 02:55 PM, said:

...  I strongly recommend looking at Keri and the Scanian stuff.

Some day I'll figure out how to integrate the Scanian 2♠ and 2NT bids into the Keri structure

Got any links? tnx

There are good books available on both systems:

The Scanian NT structures uses 2NT to ask for a weak doubleton. Its used as an anti-Lemming bid.

2♠ is an asking bid. The NT opener will rebid 2NT with all minimum hands. With a maximum, opener will show his better minor.

The 2♠ ask is used with a number of hand types including:

1. Game invitational values with no 4 card major
2. Weak hands with both minors
(A) Pass a 3♣ or 3♦ rebid
(B) Correct 2NT to 3♣
3. Game forcing hands with both minors (Rebid 3M over any rebid)
4. Weak single suited hands with Diamonds

[cf_John0]

As I can remember,there is a very good(IMO) mixture with MSS and 4-xfer in the SAYC:
[1NT-2S] MSS;
[1NT-2NT] Xfer to 3C;
[1NT-3C] Xfer to 3D;

[Chamaco]

Al_U_Card, on Sep 20 2005, 07:46 PM, said:

Having the minor suit transfers provide room for a super accept is quite valuable. The use of phony stayman then 2NT for the invite is a bit of a wrench, but not too painful most of the time.

Increasing the number of auctions that go via Stayman is no great damage to the constructive auction, but it delivers quile a lot more info to the defense for the opening lead and later decisions.

This is one of the main disadvantage of "phony Stayman", and I evaluate such a disadvantage as a quite significant one.
The "normal Stayman" is already bad enough because of the info it gives to the defense, but at least it serves the purpose to find the 44M fit.

If I have to choose a compromise, I rather give up the superaccept of clubs transfer, using the 2S = either xfer to clubs or quantitative raise (as described by Ben).
Losing the possibility of superaccepting specifically in clubs loses sometimes, but the frequency of the quantitative invite to 3NT is quite higher and I do not want to use stayman there :-)