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Acol Daylong - Feedback thread Feedback and comments on argine and the acol system it plays

#201 User is offline   smerriman 

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Posted 2023-September-25, 20:24

In most systems that would be 4♥, since you need a way to show a NT invite when you haven't found a fit with Stayman, but don't even need a way to bid hearts naturally without spade support (would have transferred if you had 5).
Reverse engineering GIB, part 1: A treatise on the insanity of bidding simulations
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#202 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2023-September-29, 19:17


Best system ever.

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#203 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2023-December-04, 04:09




+2300, too bad it wasn't Total Points.
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
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#204 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2023-December-04, 11:38

 pilowsky, on 2023-September-29, 19:17, said:


Best system ever.


A lead-directing double on ♦Jxxx (and your partner is on lead themselves) is misguided, but other than that I think you and your partner bid well.
Your 2NT opening is a bit eccentric but it is a sound principle to open 1NT whenever possible (and sometimes when impossible) against robots, and since this hand is too strong for a 12-14 NT, maybe 2NT is reasonable.
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
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#205 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2023-December-14, 21:16

Is this 5♠ call (described as 4+♥;2+♠; HCP11-20; to play.) by Argine actually a part of Acol?


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#206 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2023-December-15, 08:03

As I recall Acol, 3♠ here is a non-forcing negative and so 5♠ makes no sense.
And in a better system where 3♠ is forcing unlimited, 4♠ would make no sense (unless conventionalised in some way).

Several of the early posts in this thread point out weird 5M bids: evidently it was judged not important enough to fix, or perhaps too difficult.
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#207 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2024-January-07, 17:43

A balancing 2nt is explained as michaels but the rbot had the minors.
https://www.bridgeba...CQ|pc|HQ|pc|CJ|
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
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#208 User is offline   smerriman 

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Posted 2024-January-07, 18:43

 helene_t, on 2024-January-07, 17:43, said:

A balancing 2nt is explained as michaels but the rbot had the minors.

It's not explained as Michaels in your link..
Reverse engineering GIB, part 1: A treatise on the insanity of bidding simulations
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#209 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2024-January-07, 18:51

Oh sorry you are right. Than I can only complain about the 4nt bid but that's a well-known bug.
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
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#210 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2024-January-08, 10:09

 pescetom, on 2023-December-15, 08:03, said:

As I recall Acol, 3♠ here is a non-forcing negative and so ♠S makes no sense.

3♠ must be forcing as 2♠ is a GF. This is quite universal in British Acol.
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
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#211 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2024-January-08, 15:41

 helene_t, on 2024-January-08, 10:09, said:

3♠ must be forcing as 2♠ is a GF. This is quite universal in British Acol.

Forcing in the sense that it cannot be passed because there was already a GF (I've never encountered a useful term to express this, I am repelled by "Forcing" when the bid did not create the force) yes, but showing a minimum of strength and less than 4♠ would.
Fast arrival seems incompatible with the Acol philosophy to me.
Even the relatively modern "Guide to Better Acol Bridge" (1988) says that after Responder's jump shift "If opener then confirms a minimum opening be content with game", without needing to mention which level of bid showed the minimum.

And in this case the successive 5♠ makes no sense.
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#212 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2024-January-08, 21:01

Fast arrival is taught to beginners of both English and Dutch Acol. The first time I read about a different approach was in an American 2/1 book in which a leap to game could be a picture bid and the slow arrival was the default for minimum hands. I have never heard about that in an Acol context.
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
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#213 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2024-January-12, 15:56

 helene_t, on 2024-January-08, 21:01, said:

Fast arrival is taught to beginners of both English and Dutch Acol. The first time I read about a different approach was in an American 2/1 book in which a leap to game could be a picture bid and the slow arrival was the default for minimum hands. I have never heard about that in an Acol context.


Fast arrival is IMO a good idea in the limited context of a game force, but Fred (father of BBO) was violently opposed to it even then and I imagine Terence (father of Acol) will be turning in his grave to read that it is taught as Acol.
Call this stuff "Modern English/Dutch" or whatever, Acol had a logic and this is the opposite.
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#214 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2024-January-14, 13:07

 pescetom, on 2024-January-12, 15:56, said:

Call this stuff "Modern English/Dutch" or whatever, Acol had a logic and this is the opposite.

Why is that? Limit bids and low forcing character of various bids is what i would call acol logic, but once we are already in a gf i am not sure if there's any particular logic that applies. If anything i would say that the Acol style is to jump to game with hands that have barely enough for game, but mess around with other suits if you have slam interest.
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
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#215 User is offline   Douglas43 

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Posted 2024-February-05, 06:27

Fast Arrival was a feature of Acol Two auctions when Noah was a boy. Single raise forcing with slam interest, jump to game was support and a weak hand.
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#216 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2024-February-05, 06:57

 Douglas43, on 2024-February-05, 06:27, said:

Fast Arrival was a feature of Acol Two auctions when Noah was a boy. Single raise forcing with slam interest, jump to game was support and a weak hand.

Fast arrival as I understand it is a jump to the level you are forced when holding the minimum for your bidding so far.

I'm not sure at what point in Acol evolution the young Noah was playing, but Terence Reese in 1973 says that Acol strong two openings are forcing one round and the weak hand response is 2NT, even with support: only a positive hand will respond differently, with a single raise promising trump support and an outside ace and a raise to four indicating support with no Ace but at least 11 points.
So the (conventional) single raise is more inviting than the jump (assuming opener does not hold all aces), but the jump to game can hardly be called fast arrival as it is a voluntary show of strength (responder was only forced to 2NT).
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#217 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2024-February-07, 08:38

 pescetom, on 2024-February-05, 06:57, said:

with a single raise promising trump support and an outside ace and a raise to four indicating support with no Ace but at least 11 points.


see, 3 is stronger than 4 :)
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
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#218 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2024-February-07, 16:24

 helene_t, on 2024-February-07, 08:38, said:

see, 3 is stronger than 4 :)


Sure :)
But it lacks the "Fast Arrival" essence of being forced to the higher level in the first place.

In any case, this is basically a (wise) tweak in a very specific conventional situation.
I don't see it as relevant to developments over a 1 in a suit opening.
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#219 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2024-March-14, 23:25

3NT alerted as 1+♣, 1+♦, 1+♥ 2+♠ 11- HCP; game, to play.
What kind of hand does North have?
Spoiler

transfer

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#220 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2024-March-15, 00:15

 pilowsky, on 2024-March-14, 23:25, said:

3NT alerted as 1+♣, 1+♦, 1+♥ 2+♠ 11- HCP; game, to play.
What kind of hand does North have?
Spoiler

transfer


What was the lead?
"And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly." MikeH
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