BBO Discussion Forums: What does partner's hesitation suggest? - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

  • 3 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

What does partner's hesitation suggest? Previous round hesitation situation.

#1 User is offline   WesleyC 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 878
  • Joined: 2009-June-28
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Australia

Posted 2014-October-25, 09:05

First, I hope I'm not breaking any rules by posting in this forum rather than in a director's forum but this situation feels more a case of judgement than purely rules.

This hand occurred in the qualification phase of a matchpoint pairs event. The overall field is weak but this round you are playing with an expert (in a new partnership) against a strong pair. You play 2/1 with a semi-forcing 1NT (opener will only pass with 11-13 balanced).

You are East and the auction proceeds as follows:



There was a long hesitation before West (partner) bid 2S. His other calls (1NT and the final Pass) were made in normal tempo.

When South's 3H bid is passed back to you, pass and double are the logical alternatives.
Does partner's second round hesitation suggest one of these alternatives ahead of the other?
0

#2 User is offline   Trinidad 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,531
  • Joined: 2005-October-09
  • Location:Netherlands

Posted 2014-October-25, 09:19

Partner was probably contemplating whether to bid 3 of a minor or 2♠. He may also have been thinking of bidding 2NT, but decided not to do that now that you showed short hearts. The one thing partner does not have is the weak 3 card spade raise.

I don't really see how this information helps me significantly to decide between pass, double and 3♠.

Rik

P.S. I like the way you presented the problem. Normally (i.e. with all hands shown) everybody automatically assumes that the UI showed the hand that the hesitator held at the table.
I want my opponents to leave my table with a smile on their face and without matchpoints on their score card - in that order.
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the new discoveries, is not “Eureka!” (I found it!), but “That’s funny…” – Isaac Asimov
The only reason God did not put "Thou shalt mind thine own business" in the Ten Commandments was that He thought that it was too obvious to need stating. - Kenberg
3

#3 User is offline   whereagles 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 14,900
  • Joined: 2004-May-11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Portugal
  • Interests:Everything!

Posted 2014-October-25, 10:55

In my experience, hesitation is 99% thinking whether pard's dbl was take out or pen.
3

#4 User is offline   PhantomSac 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,488
  • Joined: 2006-March-23
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2014-October-25, 11:21

If it was a weak player I would assume they weren't sure what X was. Since it's an expert and we're in 2014 I am going to assume that was not what the hesitation was about.

When combined with the in tempo pass of 3H I agree with Trinidad and think that they were deciding between 2S and 3m with 2S and a 5 card minor. Often a slow 2S was considering passing the X of 2H and decided not to, but with that hand he would X 3H so I will rule that out.
The artist formerly known as jlall
4

#5 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 14,152
  • Joined: 2009-July-13
  • Location:England

Posted 2014-October-25, 11:54

Also possible he was considering what 2N would mean (nat, good/bad, 2 places to play) if he wanted to bid a minor.
2

#6 User is offline   WesleyC 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 878
  • Joined: 2009-June-28
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Australia

Posted 2014-October-25, 12:09

 whereagles, on 2014-October-25, 10:55, said:

In my experience, hesitation is 99% thinking whether pard's dbl was take out or pen.


FWIW you're 99% sure partner knows its a T/O double.
0

#7 User is offline   whereagles 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 14,900
  • Joined: 2004-May-11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Portugal
  • Interests:Everything!

Posted 2014-October-25, 13:35

Ok then.

In this case responder could be thinking of pass, 3m, 2♠, 2NT, or even 3♠. Since he passed 3♥ you can scrap pass. With so many options still open, I would say "result stands".
0

#8 User is offline   Fluffy 

  • World International Master without a clue
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,404
  • Joined: 2003-November-13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:madrid

Posted 2014-October-25, 13:55

Partner's hessitation makes it possible that he has a strong hand, like a strong hand that planned on rebidding 2NT, but now he has no bid, for me its complicated to say if it suggests doubling or nothing. But certainly it doesn't suggest passing over double (could suggest passing over 3 spades though)
BridgeGod: my personal website with interactive problems and articles
0

#9 User is offline   nige1 

  • 5-level belongs to me
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,128
  • Joined: 2004-August-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Glasgow Scotland
  • Interests:Poems Computers

Posted 2014-October-25, 14:15

 WesleyC, on 2014-October-25, 09:05, said:


First, I hope I'm not breaking any rules by posting in this forum rather than in a director's forum but this situation feels more a case of judgement than purely rules. This hand occurred in the qualification phase of a matchpoint pairs event. The overall field is weak but this round you are playing with an expert (in a new partnership) against a strong pair. You play 2/1 with a semi-forcing 1NT (opener will only pass with 11-13 balanced). You are East and the auction proceeds as follows: There was a long hesitation before West (partner) bid 2S. His other calls (1NT and the final Pass) were made in normal tempo.
When South's 3H bid is passed back to you, pass and double are the logical alternatives.
Does partner's second round hesitation suggest one of these alternatives ahead of the other?
With 3♠s, you would expect partner to bid 2♠ in tempo. Conceivably, he could have a borderline 3♠ bid but that is unlikely because, I'm told, normal expert practice is to raise 1♠ to 2♠ immediately, rather than to reply 1N on such hands. Thus, if an expert partner tanks, he is unlikely to hold 3♠. Hence, IMO, the unauthorised information suggests Double over Pass, and Pass over 3♠.
Guthrie.tech
0

#10 User is offline   the hog 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,728
  • Joined: 2003-March-07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Laos
  • Interests:Wagner and Bridge

Posted 2014-October-25, 21:28

 nige1, on 2014-October-25, 14:15, said:

With 3♠s, you would expect partner to bid 2♠ in tempo. Conceivably, he could have a borderline 3♠ bid but that is unlikely because, I'm told, normal expert practice is to raise 1♠ to 2♠ immediately, rather than to reply 1N on such hands. Thus, if an expert partner tanks, he is unlikely to hold 3♠. Hence, IMO, the unauthorised information suggests Double over Pass, and Pass over 3♠.


Is your last comment serious? If I have a pass, I pass. Partner's hesitation could hav many meanings and I am not going to second guess here.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
0

#11 User is offline   Fluffy 

  • World International Master without a clue
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,404
  • Joined: 2003-November-13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:madrid

Posted 2014-October-26, 02:10

I don't understand you Ron, Nigel made it totally clear, the hessitation suggests that borderline hands between pass and double should double, and borderline hands between pass and 3 spades should pass. What does it have to do with what you are saying?
BridgeGod: my personal website with interactive problems and articles
0

#12 User is offline   mcphee 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,512
  • Joined: 2003-February-16

Posted 2014-October-26, 02:20

I do not quite follow the reasons for paying any attention to partners hesitation. Who cares what he did, we aresupposed to bid wht we have. The double is take out and partner was likely considering if pass was was worth the risk. If we double now it is going to need to be pretty clear, the same if we advance with 3S, if it isn't 80% clear you can bet the opps will call the police. Score may be adjusted and all close decisions for an adjustment will be going to the other guys. You are going to need at least an 17- 18 count to act again.
0

#13 User is offline   gordontd 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,485
  • Joined: 2009-July-14
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London

Posted 2014-October-26, 03:14

 mcphee, on 2014-October-26, 02:20, said:

I do not quite follow the reasons for paying any attention to partners hesitation. Who cares what he did, we aresupposed to bid wht we have. The double is take out and partner was likely considering if pass was was worth the risk. If we double now it is going to need to be pretty clear, the same if we advance with 3S, if it isn't 80% clear you can bet the opps will call the police. Score may be adjusted and all close decisions for an adjustment will be going to the other guys. You are going to need at least an 17- 18 count to act again.

If the UI doesn't demonstrably suggest anything we can do as we like.
Gordon Rainsford
London UK
0

#14 User is offline   Trump Echo 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 119
  • Joined: 2014-February-27

Posted 2014-October-26, 05:44

It's my understanding that it doesn't matter what my partner's hesitation suggests since, ethically, I am bound to read partner's call for its face value and dismiss any advantage that might be gained from a hesitation. I think this is in the rules somewhere, isn't it?
0

#15 User is offline   Trinidad 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,531
  • Joined: 2005-October-09
  • Location:Netherlands

Posted 2014-October-26, 05:49

 Trump Echo, on 2014-October-26, 05:44, said:

It's my understanding that it doesn't matter what my partner's hesitation suggests since, ethically, I am bound to read partner's call for its face value and dismiss any advantage that might be gained from a hesitation. I think this is in the rules somewhere, isn't it?

Then your understanding is wrong.

When they are more logical alternatives (LAs), you are not allowed to choose one that is suggested by the hesitation over an other.

If there are more than 2 LAs, they can be ranked by how strongly they are suggested by the hesitation. As a result you are supposed to pick the one that is least suggested by the hesitation.

So, you are not allowed to simply ignore the UI. You have to face the UI and do the opposite of what the UI suggests. So, it is does very much matter what the hesitation suggests.

Rik
I want my opponents to leave my table with a smile on their face and without matchpoints on their score card - in that order.
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the new discoveries, is not “Eureka!” (I found it!), but “That’s funny…” – Isaac Asimov
The only reason God did not put "Thou shalt mind thine own business" in the Ten Commandments was that He thought that it was too obvious to need stating. - Kenberg
0

#16 User is offline   the hog 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,728
  • Joined: 2003-March-07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Laos
  • Interests:Wagner and Bridge

Posted 2014-October-26, 07:31

 Fluffy, on 2014-October-26, 02:10, said:

I don't understand you Ron, Nigel made it totally clear, the hessitation suggests that borderline hands between pass and double should double, and borderline hands between pass and 3 spades should pass. What does it have to do with what you are saying?


"Conceivably, he could have a borderline 3♠ bid but that is unlikely"

" Hence, IMO, the unauthorised information suggests Double over Pass, and Pass over 3♠. "

I suggest you re read his post and my response Fluffy, paying attention to the quotes.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
0

#17 User is offline   GrahamJson 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 560
  • Joined: 2014-October-11

Posted 2014-October-26, 07:41

Leaving aside the ethics of this, how sure can you be that it was partner who hesitated, or indeed anyone? Could it not be simply delays caused by the wifi, either your own or others? I'm pretty sure if you played with me you would think I was hesitating all the time (well, at least on some days) whereas in fact it is my dodgy wifi. Service.
0

#18 User is offline   Trinidad 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,531
  • Joined: 2005-October-09
  • Location:Netherlands

Posted 2014-October-26, 08:27

 GrahamJson, on 2014-October-26, 07:41, said:

Leaving aside the ethics of this, how sure can you be that it was partner who hesitated, or indeed anyone? Could it not be simply delays caused by the wifi, either your own or others? I'm pretty sure if you played with me you would think I was hesitating all the time (well, at least on some days) whereas in fact it is my dodgy wifi. Service.

Hi Graham,

The OP wrote:

Quote

This hand occurred in the qualification phase of a matchpoint pairs event.


I realize that there is a growing group of people out there who only play bridge over the internet. But this deal was clearly played with 52 pieces of card board in the fingers of four players sitting around one table, like they used to do in the 20th century. This was reality, without a place for the word "virtual". Wifi, dodgy or not, was not the cause of the hesitation.

Rik
I want my opponents to leave my table with a smile on their face and without matchpoints on their score card - in that order.
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the new discoveries, is not “Eureka!” (I found it!), but “That’s funny…” – Isaac Asimov
The only reason God did not put "Thou shalt mind thine own business" in the Ten Commandments was that He thought that it was too obvious to need stating. - Kenberg
0

#19 User is offline   GrahamJson 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 560
  • Joined: 2014-October-11

Posted 2014-October-26, 09:41

Rik, thanks for the clarification. I'm a bit new to BBO but thought that there were regular mp events for regular partnerships. However reading the initial question again it is clear that it was real bridge, not the virtual version.
0

#20 User is offline   nige1 

  • 5-level belongs to me
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,128
  • Joined: 2004-August-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Glasgow Scotland
  • Interests:Poems Computers

Posted 2014-October-26, 12:15

 the hog, on 2014-October-25, 21:28, said:

Is your last comment serious? If I have a pass, I pass. Partner's hesitation could hav many meanings and I am not going to second guess here.
IMO, partner's hesitation before bidding 2♠ implies that he's unlikely to hold 3♠s. This unauthorised information suggests double over pass and pass over 3♠.

Several legal and bridge experts, whose views I respect, judge that the break in tempo does not suggest one call over another, so I admit that I may have suffered from a blind-spot -- but I have yet to discover what it is.
Guthrie.tech
0
  • 3 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users