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Acol Daylong - Feedback thread Feedback and comments on argine and the acol system it plays

#61 User is offline   diana_eva 

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Posted 2023-January-08, 10:54

The Argine team is aware of this thread, and we routinely send other feedback and bug reports their way. However, I don't think they'll come post here on what is being done.

#62 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2023-January-09, 02:54

There are some rather unusual explanations in the bidding.
After opening 1H and West passing North bid 1S described as forcing.
East passed and when I hovered over 'pass' an explanation appeared saying 'that bid is not allowed'!
I passed and West bid 2D.
Obviously annoyed by my refusal to cooperate, North bid 3S - 'natural'.

On the next hand North opened 1NT - 12-14 balanced.
I hovered over 4C and then over 4D - both bids apparently have the same meaning - two-suited in H and S.
Is this another quirk of Acol bidding I'm unaware of?
Fortuna Fortis Felix
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#63 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2023-January-09, 04:55

(1!s)-p-(p)-x
(p)-2-(p)-2NT
was explained as 14-16, sounds a bit low to me. Maybe 15-18 is standard, although I would personally prefer a tad sounder.
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
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#64 User is online   smerriman 

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Posted 2023-January-09, 15:33

View Postpilowsky, on 2023-January-09, 02:54, said:

There are some rather unusual explanations in the bidding.
After opening 1H and West passing North bid 1S described as forcing.
East passed and when I hovered over 'pass' an explanation appeared saying 'that bid is not allowed'!
I passed and West bid 2D.
Obviously annoyed by my refusal to cooperate, North bid 3S - 'natural'.

What is unusual about this?

View Postpilowsky, on 2023-January-09, 02:54, said:

On the next hand North opened 1NT - 12-14 balanced.
I hovered over 4C and then over 4D - both bids apparently have the same meaning - two-suited in H and S.
Is this another quirk of Acol bidding I'm unaware of?

Yeah, I discovered this the hard way a few weeks ago after finding out that 1N - 2 - 2 - 3 showed slam interest, and you had to start with 4 / 4 to just show game values. They're not the same definition; one shows 5-6 hearts with 5 spades and one 5-6 spades with 5 hearts. But I have no idea what the convention is.
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#65 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2023-January-09, 15:49

View Postsmerriman, on 2023-January-09, 15:33, said:

What is unusual about this?



The 'unusual' thing about it is the wording.

Telling me that a bid is 'not allowed' is bizarre.

What next? "That bid is utterly ridiculous" or "That bid will farnarkle the whole game don't be silly."
As I understand it bid descriptors are meant to describe what your partner will think about your hand - 'not allowed' - doesn't do that.
Fortuna Fortis Felix
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#66 User is online   smerriman 

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Posted 2023-January-09, 15:51

Seems perfect to me. The definition of 'forcing' is 'partner is not allowed to pass your bid'. I think they should have *more* of that description, since there's no better way of describing what a pass of a 100% forcing bid should mean.
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#67 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2023-January-09, 16:29

View Postpilowsky, on 2023-January-09, 15:49, said:

As I understand it bid descriptors are meant to describe what your partner will think about your hand - 'not allowed' - doesn't do that.[/size]

Bid descriptors describe your systemic agreement.
"Excluded by system" might be more diplomatic than "not allowed".
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#68 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2023-January-09, 20:54

Whoever is responsible for this 100% brilliancy deserves a medal:


Fortuna Fortis Felix
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#69 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2023-January-10, 08:16

There is so much wrong here that it would be simpler to just list what makes any sense :(
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#70 User is online   smerriman 

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Posted 2023-January-11, 21:38


Completely nonsensical play on trick 1 gifts me the contract.
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#71 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2023-January-12, 00:26

View Postsmerriman, on 2023-January-11, 21:38, said:


Completely nonsensical play on trick 1 gifts me the contract.


Which is exactly the same as the play in the bananas example above where East leads SA and another spade to dummies Q and West with the K cunningly avoids the opportunity to defeat the contract.
Perhaps Argine is just being polite?.
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#72 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2023-January-12, 06:29

1-2
2*
and similar rebids are explained as 4+ spades and 4-6 hearts. This should show 5+ spades. There might be an exception for
1red-1black
2minor
which can be a 4441 shape in some styles. But you never open 1 with a 4441 shape.
By the way,
1-2
2-2
3*
is explained as 11-12 points so apparently nonforcing. Whether this is FSF or paterning out, I believe it should be forcing or at least encouraging. Probably F1 after a 2-level response and encouraging after a 1-level response.
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
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#73 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2023-January-12, 06:29

1-2
2*
and similar rebids are explained as 4+ spades and 4-6 hearts. This should show 5+ spades. There might be an exception for
1red-1/2black
2minor
which can be a 4441 shape in some styles. But you never open 1 with a 4441 shape.
By the way,
1-2
2-2
3*
is explained as 11-12 points so apparently nonforcing. Whether this is FSF or paterning out, I believe it should be forcing or at least encouraging. Probably F1 after a 2-level response and encouraging after a 1-level response. (Of course if it is FSF it is forcing. Playing it as FSF may seem weird to non-Brits but is quite common in UK).
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
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#74 User is online   smerriman 

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Posted 2023-January-13, 01:39

I guess if it's too late for 4NT, you can still use 5NT to ask for aces.



One person managed to get them all the way to grand, though didn't score as well. This time, Argine forgot that introducing a suit the opponents have bid and raised isn't natural. And 4NT wasn't Blackwood, but 5NT was suddenly asking for kings. And how exactly is 4 asking for a stopper in hearts?! For anyone who thought that GIB was bad, Argine is on another level.


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#75 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2023-January-13, 03:26

2-2
3-3NT
4-pass
Not only did it pass a GF bid, it even held a huge hand itself, with AJxx of hearts, xxx of diamonds and a doubleton clubs. So it shouldn't be a surprise that 7 was cold.

Something else: Argine often rejects obvious claims, I have sent a few reports.
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
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#76 User is online   smerriman 

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Posted 2023-January-13, 04:36

helene_t, on 2023-January-13, 03:26, said:

Something else: Argine often rejects obvious claims, I have sent a few reports.

Yeah, this one is frustrating and comes up quite regularly. When they initially were collecting some feedback via email I sent one example to Uday where it rejected a claim when I had everything in top tricks. He confirmed it in the logs and was going to email the dev and find out what was going on. So I know they're aware of it at least [but that was Oct 29].

Wouldn't complain if they just passed the request to GiB instead..
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#77 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2023-January-15, 18:36

Strange glitch
All tables except one passed 2S

Correction I didn't check

Half (EDIT 75%) passed and half (25%) didnt - seems cruel

2NT described as 9 points. Pass described as less than 10 points :)

Correction again - I was right first time. A few percent didn't pass - would love to know more about how it all works





I appreciate with computer Bridge it is an interesting discussion point regarding the role of artificially introduced variance
It would also appear to be an efficiency consideration - how many sims are genuinely needed in any auction

1443 players * 8 hands * approx 8(??) bids = more than it needs to be - sorry didn't adjust for sections - approx 100 reps of each hand
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#78 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2023-January-15, 18:36

Dup
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#79 User is online   smerriman 

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Posted 2023-January-15, 19:10

Found the traveller and you're right; the robot acted differently in the same situation. I was meaning to test that myself sometime. That's a *serious* bug.
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#80 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2023-January-15, 19:18

Sorry for all the edits. I kept misreading the traveller :)
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