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bid this 70% slam

#1 User is offline   shevek 

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Posted 2018-June-23, 23:56

Dealer East, IMPs


12 out of 14 pairs played 4 in a recent, decent club game, IMPs.
Presumably after

1 - 1 - 3 - 4

East was dealer.
Can you do better?
(Okay, it's a good hand for a strong club system)
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#2 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2018-June-24, 01:26

I'd bid

1H - 2C (not playing 2/1)
3NT (6+H, too strong for 3H rebid) - 4C (cue, really hoping to hear 4D)
4D (cue) - 4NT (RKC)
5C (1 or 4) - 5D (ask Q)
5H (nope) - 6H

I think the E hand is too good for a 3H rebid (unless he feels like "catching up" after a 4H signoff). Look at all those controls!

ahydra
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#3 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2018-June-24, 02:44

East is indeed too strong for 1H-3H rebid. 8 playing tricks is an old style « strong 2 » that I can fortunately show after a 2C-2D start. West even with a minimum fit has 11 HCP with good controls and presumably can show some enthusiasm in the bidding.
2C 2D
2H 3C
3H 3S (4H would not be enough at that stage)
3NT 4H (4C would be a bit too much, if partner passes slam was probably bad)
4NT (rich hand and hoping partner doesn’t have the SK!) 5D
6H (after all the noise partner made he has some fit + some C suit and SA so slam is probably a good bet)
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#4 User is offline   FelicityR 

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Posted 2018-June-24, 02:44

Once upon a long, long time ago British players had a strong 2 opening bid at their disposal showing at least 8 playing tricks and a good suit, and the East hand is a perfect example.

Other than that, except if you have a specialist rebid available as ahydra detailed using SAYC or 2/1, I believe most pairs would end up similarly in a 4 contract, and the proof of the pudding is that 12 out of 14 pairs in a decent club game also missed the small slam.
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#5 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2018-June-24, 02:46

View PostFelicityR, on 2018-June-24, 02:44, said:

long time ago British players had a strong 2 opening bid at their disposal showing at least 8 playing tricks and a good suit

We exactly said the same at the same moment 😄
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#6 User is online   pescetom 

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Posted 2018-June-24, 09:20

It's a pig for natural based systems because West is not quite strong enough to force to game and East is too strong for a 3 rebid, yet most else leads to gane in or even a lousy NT contract.
If West did take the risk of bidding a 2 GF then we might still stop in 5 after discovering no Q and with doubt about K and lesser honours.
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#7 User is offline   wank 

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Posted 2018-June-24, 10:10

View Postahydra, on 2018-June-24, 01:26, said:

I'd bid

1H - 2C (not playing 2/1)
3NT (6+H, too strong for 3H rebid) - 4C (cue, really hoping to hear 4D)
4D (cue) - 4NT (RKC)
5C (1 or 4) - 5D (ask Q)
5H (nope) - 6H

I think the E hand is too good for a 3H rebid (unless he feels like "catching up" after a 4H signoff). Look at all those controls!

ahydra


too strong for a 2h rebid? 3h should be forcing even in acol.

anyway, east has to game force with this hand over 1S in standard methods.
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#8 User is offline   yunling 

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Posted 2018-June-24, 10:27

Playing standard it would be something like
1-1
3-3NT
4-5
6

Not a decent auction anyway.
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#9 User is online   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2018-June-24, 13:21

1H - 1S (1)
3D (2) - 3NT (3)
pass (4)

(1) the hand is not strong enough to force to game, which you plan do,
if you start with 2C, over the normal 2H rebid by opener, you will have
to bid 2S, and 2S basically forces to game, basically independ of system
(2) gf, inventing a minor on the 3 level, unless you have a gadget like
2NT showing 6+ hearts
(3) ..., best I can come up with, 3NT could be an Ace weaker, the
alternative 3H, will not lead to a better auction
(4) 4H sounds like 64, and wont also generate a excitement with p
..........................
1H - 1S
2NT (1) - 3C (2)
3H (3) - 3S (4)
4C (4) - 4D (5)
4H / 6H (6) - all pass

(1) 6+ hearts, at least inv. strength
(2) accepting the invite
(3) game forcing hand, without 3 spades
(4) cue
(5) last train
(6) mood, opener has already shown a power house
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#10 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2018-June-24, 19:28

View Postwank, on 2018-June-24, 10:10, said:

too strong for a 2h rebid? 3h should be forcing even in acol.

anyway, east has to game force with this hand over 1S in standard methods.
3H isn't forcing in Standard American. Bids in Acol are usually less forcing than in standard.
From my understanding of Acol 3H can easily be passed.

Nice hand for a Acol 2H opening as others have said. I stopped playing this not because it didn't work but because it never came up.
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#11 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2018-June-24, 19:47

Steve, Wank was referring to 3h after a 2c response. That's certainly forcing.
IMPs is probably a better format when everyone's drinking --- Vampyr
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#12 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2018-June-24, 21:22

You were correct in your assessment that it is a good hand for big clubs systems - which explains why this hand is difficult otherwise, because the second thing you have to do is play catchup with hand strength, wasting a level of space in the process.

I would have to put the pressure on responder to move with:
1H-1S
3D-3H
4H-

With 3 control cards in the unbid suits, it is imperative for responding hand to find another bid - 4S is what I would choose.
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#13 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2018-June-25, 01:27

View Posthelene_t, on 2018-June-24, 19:47, said:

Steve, Wank was referring to 3h after a 2c response. That's certainly forcing.


Agree. 100% forcing to game.

If you assess the quality of the heart suit as good enough (marginal), then this should be an easy auction, once you establish the game forcing values by starting: 1, 2; 3 ...

You then continue by cue-bidding followed by RKCB and stop in 6 when you discover the the Q is missing.
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#14 User is offline   igt3 

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Posted 2018-June-25, 01:59

I play Gazzilli with my partner so we would have no problem reaching slam.

1H - 1S
2C - 2D
3H - 4C (Cue confirming hearts)
4D - 4NT
5C (1430) - 5D
5H - 6H
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#15 User is online   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2018-June-25, 02:21

View Poststeve2005, on 2018-June-24, 19:28, said:

<snip>
Nice hand for a Acol 2H opening as others have said. I stopped playing this not because it didn't work but because it never came up.

I dont think so. An Acol 2H opening showes only 5+, 55 hands with the right suit quality can be opened with a strong 2 bid quite nicely.
And it also showes something like 8.5 playing tricks, not 8, the bid tells partner to bid game if he has 1 trick, and major suit games need 10,
i.e. with 9.5 tricks you take your chances.
Responder has 3 tricks, which means you have only 11.5, counting the doubleton as a trick with only 2 trumps is knowing partner has AK in the given
suit and solid trumps, that welcome a trump lead, other wise a trump lead, followed by a 2nd round kills the slam, and the ruffing trick disappers.
And the if you regular open "light" Acol 2H, he can at best invite, and opener will decline, because he has a min.
If you strengthen your requirements for an Acol 2H, than the frequency goes down, but the hand we are currently discussing wont qualify.
Claiming the hand a 8 playing trick hand, is also quite a strong view, it has 5 loosers, that does not make it a 8 playing trick hand.

The slam is hard to bid with natural methods, there is no wastage, except the Jack of diamonds, and you need trumps breaking 32.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#16 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2018-June-25, 02:32

View Postwank, on 2018-June-24, 10:10, said:

too strong for a 2h rebid? 3h should be forcing even in acol.


No, I meant 3H. 3H is GF, sure, but East would also rebid 3H without the DK, for example. Without another call to show a Acol Two strength hand, perhaps you can just about cope with the wide(ish) range of 3H by bidding on with the Acol Two even if partner signs off in 4H. I never get such good cards so can't speak from experience :)

ahydra
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#17 User is offline   nekthen 

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Posted 2018-June-25, 04:02

View Postigt3, on 2018-June-25, 01:59, said:

I play Gazzilli with my partner so we would have no problem reaching slam.

1H - 1S
2C - 2D
3H - 4C (Cue confirming hearts)
4D - 4NT
5C (1430) - 5D
5H - 6H


Using Gazzilli I would bid 1H 1S 3H GF, then the auction continues as above.
I think part of the point of Gazz is that 1H 1S 3H is GF
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#18 User is offline   nekthen 

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Posted 2018-June-25, 04:12

I open 2C to show 8pt in a major or GF
p bids 2D at least 1 trick

So

2c 2d
2h 3c
4h 4N
5d 5s
6h
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#19 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2018-June-25, 05:56

View Postahydra, on 2018-June-25, 02:32, said:

3H is GF, sure, but East would also rebid 3H without the DK, for example. Without another call to show a Acol Two strength hand, perhaps you can just about cope with the wide(ish) range of 3H by bidding on with the Acol Two even if partner signs off in 4H.


3 (in the auction 1, 2, 3) is setting trumps and an invitation for partner to start cue-bidding. If partner signs-off in 4 after this start he(she) either doesn't have a control to cue-bid or is very unsuitable for slam with extreme shortage in your heart suit. In these circumstances, you are better off respecting partner and settling for game.
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#20 User is offline   igt3 

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Posted 2018-June-25, 06:10

View Postnekthen, on 2018-June-25, 04:02, said:

Using Gazzilli I would bid 1H 1S 3H GF, then the auction continues as above.
I think part of the point of Gazz is that 1H 1S 3H is GF


Are som versions of Gazzilli, but with the original 1H-1S-3H shows a hand with a good 6+H suit but not enough to force to game vs a minimum 1S-response. 2H would show minimum with 6+H.
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