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Puppet Stayman after 2NT

#1 User is offline   Liversidge 

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Posted 2017-June-08, 00:43

We play Acol, Stayman and Transfers and are thinking about using Puppet Stayman response to 2NT.
How do you suggest we should use the unused 3 response? I have come across two suggestions - one showing 5 spades and 4 hearts, and another showing a long minor and a hand unsuitable for 3NT (presumably weak with a void or singleton) - opener rebids 4 and responder passes or corrects.
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#2 User is offline   spotlight7 

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Posted 2017-June-08, 01:32

I use 2N-3S* to tell about 5-5+ minor hands. Jlall suggests using the bid to show 5-4 minors.


You might want to try 2N-3S* as a puppet to 3N. Now you can sign off with 4C if desired.

Higher bids can still show various minor suit type hands.
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#3 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2017-June-08, 01:39

The 3 response to puppet Stayman shows five spades. But I assume you are actually asking about the 3 response to 2NT?

Some use the bid as showing five/four in spades and hearts, others use it as minor suit Stayman on 5-5 minor suit hands. I can't imagine why you would want to sign off in four of a minor over 2NT (what is your 2NT range?). With a long minor I would either try for 5 or take my chances in no-trumps.
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#4 User is online   nige1 

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Posted 2017-June-08, 01:58

View PostLiversidge, on 2017-June-08, 00:43, said:

We play Acol, Stayman and Transfers and are thinking about using Puppet Stayman response to 2NT. How do you suggest we should use the unused 3 response? I have come across two suggestions - one showing 5 spades and 4 hearts, and another showing a long minor and a hand unsuitable for 3NT (presumably weak with a void or singleton) - opener rebids 4 and responder passes or corrects.

2N - ??
  • 3 = REL. (Then we play a Muppet variant which starts 3 = ART 4 M. 3 = ART No 4 M. 3 = 5 s. 3N = ART 5 s)
  • 3 = TRF 5 s
  • 3 = TRF 5 s
  • 3 = ART Range enquiry or 6+ s (Then 3N = MIN. 4 = MAX).

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#5 User is offline   The_Badger 

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Posted 2017-June-08, 03:22

View Postspotlight7, on 2017-June-08, 01:32, said:

Jlall suggests using the bid to show 5-4 minors.


I personally like the Justin Lall option. I feel one of the most difficult things is finding a 4-4 (or even a 5-3) minor suit fit (especially a small slam) after a 2NT opening. The 4-4 minor suit fit usually yields that extra twelfth trick when 6NT is a doomed contract.

Once upon a time (a long time ago!) Baron 3 was popular with British players, but as everyone is now playing Puppet you need an option where puppet minor suit responses can be built in.
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#6 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2017-June-08, 03:43

The key to deciding how to use the 3 response actually lies in the version of Puppet you are using. This defines how you handle various other hands and therefore which need the extra help from the 3 response. For the structure I prefer it works like this:-

2NT
==
3 = Puppet Stayman (you can handle your slammy 54 and 54 hands here while simultaneously looking for a 5-3 major fit on the (31)(54) hands)
3 = 5+ hearts
3 = 5+ spades
3 = 5+ clubs, Si (6+ clubs or 5-5 minors)
... - 3NT = no fit
... - ... - 4 = 6+ clubs
... - ... - 4+ = 5+ diamonds
... - 4 = 3+ clubs, decline slam try
... - 4+ = 3+ clubs, accept slam try
3NT = to play
4 = 6+ diamonds, SI
4 = 6+ hearts
4 = 6+ spades
--

If you want to keep Gerber then the diamond 1-suiter also has to be i9ncluded in the 3 response, which is a method I played as a junior.

The problem with all of these schemes is that they are relatively complicated though, which makes a real recommendation for N/B difficult. The issue is not so much the 3 response itself - having it show clubs is relatively easy - but rather the artificiality that has to be added to the 3 complex in order to accomodate this. You probably know best how much complexity is too much in this.

Finally, I will mention one method that is in-between in terms of complexity, more articial than 3 showing 54 but less than the minor suit-based schemes. This is the inversion: 3 = to play 3NT; 3NT = 54. You might wonder why I mention this as it is obviously not optimal. The answer is that using this method can become a middle-step between simple and complicated. It is very easy to add the minor suit hands into 3 later on (ie 3 = to play 3NT or slammy with one/both minors), which allows you to minimise the changes as you progress. Again, whether that is a good approach for you and your partner is something you need to decide for yourself.
(-: Zel :-)

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#7 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2017-June-08, 05:25

I prefer Nigel's method, which gets those 5 4 hands out of the way. 3NT is Baron, and 3 is a puppet to 3NT, to play or to show one- and two-suited slam tries.

But the above is very interesting.
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#8 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2017-June-08, 06:01

View PostVampyr, on 2017-June-08, 05:25, said:

I prefer Nigel's method, which gets those 5 4 hands out of the way.

There are several Puppet variants that can deal with the 54 hands. Muppet is possibly the more popular here but I personally prefer a variant on the LIPS method, which as it happens I also play over 1NT.

PS: as an aside, I noticed while writing this that Dave Stevenson's website is down completely. It would be sad to lose this site as it is a fantastic resource in several areas. Given that he has not been here for some time, does anyone know if everything is ok with him? It would be even sadder if there is something more serious behind the change. :unsure:
(-: Zel :-)

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#9 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-June-08, 07:50

We play 2N-3 forces 3N

4m = slam try in the minor
4 = both minors longer clubs
4 = both minors longer diamond
4N = 5-5 minors slam try
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#10 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2017-June-08, 07:56

View PostCyberyeti, on 2017-June-08, 07:50, said:

We play 2N-3 forces 3N

4m = slam try in the minor
4 = both minors longer clubs
4 = both minors longer diamond
4N = 5-5 minors slam try


We do this in reverse; the majors show the single-suited hands.
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#11 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2017-June-08, 08:31

View PostCyberyeti, on 2017-June-08, 07:50, said:

We play 2N-3 forces 3N

4m = slam try in the minor
4 = both minors longer clubs
4 = both minors longer diamond
4N = 5-5 minors slam try

The most popular (albeit probably not theoretically best) version of this appears to be:-
4m = slam try in the minor
4 = 5-5 minors, void
4 = 5-5 minors, void
4N = 5-5 minors, no void
(-: Zel :-)

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#12 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2017-June-08, 09:54

View PostLiversidge, on 2017-June-08, 00:43, said:

We play Acol, Stayman and Transfers and are thinking about using Puppet Stayman response to 2NT.
How do you suggest we should use the unused 3 response? I have come across two suggestions - one showing 5 spades and 4 hearts, and another showing a long minor and a hand unsuitable for 3NT (presumably weak with a void or singleton) - opener rebids 4 and responder passes or corrects.

Using 3 for 54 is a waste. The standard puppet Stayman you can't show this hand so look for a different version.
Using for a long minor while possible is looking for a small target playing in 4m when 2N fails.


More useful use for 3 is a puppet to 3N then showing good hand with 1 suiter or 2 suiter in minor.
I prefer 3 as Minor Suit Stayman, 4 showing good hand with and 4 showing good hand with . Could also use 3N as good hand with but people will forget



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#13 User is offline   dow1978 

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Posted 2017-June-09, 00:37

2NT or 3NT . that is Bid.
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#14 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2017-June-09, 09:56

View PostZelandakh, on 2017-June-08, 06:01, said:

PS: as an aside, I noticed while writing this that Dave Stevenson's website is down completely. It would be sad to lose this site as it is a fantastic resource in several areas. Given that he has not been here for some time, does anyone know if everything is ok with him? It would be even sadder if there is something more serious behind the change. :unsure:

He's been posting recently on bridgewinners. I suspect he just forgot to pay a bill. I'll drop him a note.
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#15 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2017-June-09, 11:46

A popular method here on the West Coast is to show the 5s/4h hands by bidding 3NT over 2NT. The drawback, of course, is that you have to remember to bid 3S (puppet to 3NT) in order to sign off in 3NT (by passing the puppet). If you bid 3NT intending to play there, you may be surprised when partner takes out to 4M.

The 3S bid shows either a raise to 3NT or minor suit interest. Opener must bid 3NT, after which responder's bids are as follows:

Pass = raise to 3NT
4C = single-suited slammish hand with clubs
4D = single-suite slammish hand with diamonds
4H = both minors (5/4 or better); slammish; S shortness (some people reverse this and play H shortness)
4S = both minors (5/4 or better); slammish; H shortness (some people reverse this and play S shortness)
4NT = 2245 or 2254

Cheers,
Mike
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#16 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2017-June-09, 14:56

View PostZelandakh, on 2017-June-08, 08:31, said:

The most popular (albeit probably not theoretically best) version of this appears to be:-
4m = slam try in the minor
4 = 5-5 minors, void
4 = 5-5 minors, void
4N = 5-5 minors, no void


I think it's more common to play 4H and 4S are 5/5+m and 4NT is 2254 or 2245. Some bid their short suit (4H is shorter hearts than spades and vice versa). I actually prefer to bid the 2-3 card fragment (yes, if I'm 1165, I don't have a good choice).
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#17 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2017-June-10, 00:59

W e
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#18 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2017-June-10, 01:05

We never suppress a 5 card major.We never open a hand with a 5 card major as 1/2 NT.A five card minor can be opened in a 1/2 NT hand.So the under mentioned method is not applicable to hands with a five card major.Very briefly, we play these methods.
2Nt(20-22)-3C (3 or more points,)Relay.
3D Shows either both majors or one major and 3-3-3 pattern
3H shows Hearts and a minor
3S shows Spades and a minor.
3NT shows a four card minor and 333 or both minors and 3/2(or 2/3) or a 5 card minor.
2NT-3D/H are usual transfers to 3H/S but with no slam interest.
2NT-3S Slam interest in two touching suits
2NT- 3NT To play.
2NT-4C Slam interest in Hearts and Clubs
2NT- 4D S lam interest in Spades and Diamonds
Over 2NT there are no transfer bids for minors
Personally,I prefer to play Baron over 2NT.3D/H are usual transfers and 3S shows 5Spades and 4 Heard 3NT is transfer to either minor.Hence If responder wishes to play in 3NT he reaches that via 3C.
Those interested in the further development of the auction are requested to see pages 138 to 142 of Precision and Super Precision Bidding by Belladonna and Garozzo.
Thanks a lot and have a nice weekend.
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#19 User is offline   wank 

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Posted 2017-June-10, 16:49

View PostThe_Badger, on 2017-June-08, 03:22, said:

but as everyone is now playing Puppet you need an option where puppet minor suit responses can be built in.

i don't know anyone who plays puppet over 2nt
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#20 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2017-June-11, 03:39

View Postmsjennifer, on 2017-June-10, 01:05, said:


Playable methods but I am sure you know yourself that they are far from optimal. I even played something not so far removed from the second scheme as a beginner. One suggestion I do have as you are a fan of Baron is Skip Baron. This is like normal Baron except that Responder bids the lowest suit where they do not have 4 cards. It works out similarly to normal Baron in effect but helps rather a lot with rightsiding.

Broadly speaking, Baron basically finds out about diamonds instead of 5 card majors below 3NTwhen compared with Puppet; and compared with normal Stayman you get the diamonds at the cost of efficient handling of 5-4 major hands. There are some other differences too but that is a decent starting point for those looking to choose a basic method.
(-: Zel :-)

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